How I Went From $0 To 6 figures on Instagram (67-Minute Masterclass) | 134

[00:00:00] Gannon: We are infatuated with the views and the likes on a post and the follower count. I know people who have hundreds of thousands of followers who make no money.

[00:00:07] Nathan: How do you make money from Instagram? You already have the attention. People watch your reels and reply to your stories, but almost none of that turns into actual revenue.

[00:00:16] Gannon: 70 to 80% of the time you should have a CTA. I have figured it out on my own because I’ve made 4,000 videos.

[00:00:22] Nathan: He’s done videos for clients that have done hundreds of thousands of views, $50,000 boot camp launches, and every weekly newsletter he sends generates sales on autopilot. If you have an audience on Instagram but you’re not making money, you’re probably making this mistake.

[00:00:36] Gannon: You’re probably not using the PSA story framework. Every time I do it, it has 4X outlier.

[00:00:42] Nathan: He breaks down his selling system into a simple three-step framework, and he walks through his funnel piece by piece.

[00:00:47] Gannon: If you go on your Instagram analytics, your insights for a post, their most recent update lists the engagement in order of how important it is for being recommended to a new audience.

[00:00:55] Comments are still ranked pretty high.

[00:00:57] Nathan: By the end, you’ll have a funnel you can set up this

[00:00:59] Gannon: week, no matter the size of

[00:01:01] Nathan: your audience. Your revenue per view ratio on that is probably very good. It’s more than a dollar a view. This is incredible.

[00:01:12] So Ganun, we’ve got a big topic today, how to make money from Instagram. Yes, sir. There’s a lot of people that build big followings and don’t make any money.

[00:01:19] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:01:20] Nathan: What do you say to that?

[00:01:21] Gannon: Uh, you know, they usually chase brand deals as the next best step, and then that turns into an unreliable marketing stream or income stream, so I help them sell their products.

[00:01:30] And people who do sell products, they’re just like, “I know I sell them. I just don’t know how I sell them.” And I’m like- Okay … “Well, we have to figure that out so that’s why they hire me.”

[00:01:38] Nathan: So you turn the attention from Instagram- Correct … into actual revenue and sales.

[00:01:42] Gannon: Yeah, and also being able to, like, visualize what it looks like and how to do more of what’s working, because people just don’t know.

[00:01:48] Nathan: I think a lot of people, even who make that leap to products, are then like, “I don’t know. I just kind of mentioned it in a story or something else, and-

[00:01:53] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:01:54] Nathan: it made some money,” and so it doesn’t feel sustainable or reliable. Yeah. Uh, like, how do you approach

[00:02:00] Gannon: that? I mean, most people, I mean, I hate to say it, like, just, they just get lucky.

[00:02:04] Yeah. And they just continue, like, riding that luck wave, and then when things run out, they just like, “Well, this doesn’t work anymore. Let me go for more brand deals.” Mm. Um, you know, the way that we approach it is just, like, how do we make everything personal, eyes a- at, at scale, right? So, like, if I know somebody has a specific problem, I need to get that out of them, have them tell me, and then recommend a solution.

[00:02:25] Because the way that I kind of explain it is like, if this is, uh, a menu at, like, a diner.

[00:02:31] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:32] Gannon: You have 40,000 different… Like, a New Jersey diner, for example, right? Or a New York diner, you have, like, 40,000 different combinations of things. And if, let’s just… I use the example of, like, being on a road trip.

[00:02:42] Like, you’re on an eight-hour road trip from, like, Florida to, like, Upstate New York. You stop in New York City or, like, somewhere in New Jersey, and it’s like, “I’m starving, and I don’t know what I want. And the fact that this has 40,000 things on it is not making my taste any better.” And, um, I, I give the analogy of, like, a waiter or a waitress coming over and asking, like, “What can I get you?”

[00:03:03] You not knowing what you want, and then the waiter asking, “Well, what do you like? What are you in the mood for?”

[00:03:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:07] Gannon: So instead of the waiter recommending right off the bat, like, the specials on the menu, it’s taking into consideration what this person likes, because- Right … if they’re like, “You should get the salmon,” and you don’t like seafood, it’s just gonna make you even more mad.

[00:03:19] So that’s kind of the logic we’re taking to this. Like, even if you have one or two products, you still have a menu, and you need to get that menu item in front of the right person to help them make that decision. Okay. Because they don’t know what to buy. They just need help. Yeah, and I- And that’s where

[00:03:33] Nathan: you come in

[00:03:33] I’m excited to dive into that. Before we do that, what’s, what are some examples of, uh, clients that you’ve had? May- maybe let’s do two things. Let’s talk about clients that you’ve had- Yeah … like, right, and who you- you’ve served, and then maybe separately from that, you can give some examples of- … the types of income that you’ve seen creators achieve.

[00:03:52] Yeah. You know, like following to, to income level.

[00:03:54] Gannon: It’s, it’s crazy, um, and just, like, being able to see this behind the scenes and just seeing how, like- Just how these businesses operate is just so, like, eye-opening for me.

[00:04:04] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:04:04] Gannon: Um, but yeah, how they typically work, um, you know, a lot of the, the clients that we work with are, like, info, educational-based, so like course cohort, uh, membership, community.

[00:04:16] They’re typically doing, like, quarter million to, like, half million in sales a year.

[00:04:20] Nathan: Okay.

[00:04:20] Gannon: A lot of that’s brand deals. Um, or they want to launch a product, and they see, like, “Oh, this person made $1.2 million or $1.5 million,” and, like, “I wanna do the same thing,” and it’s just like, “We can, we can try to get you there.

[00:04:33] Um, but you have to understand that, like, you know, this, when you’re launching something or releasing something to, like, your audience, the, the fundamental, like, thing that you’re trying to achieve is, like, how do I get this person not to, like, pay me money, but to trust me enough that I’m the right person- Mm-hmm

[00:04:48] to help them solve this problem?” And people are just not good at that, because they take this, like, shotgun approach, where it’s like, “I have 800,000 people in my audience. Let me just pitch the same thing to everybody and see who buys.” Right. Right? Agreed. Shout out to Brennan Dunn, by the way.

[00:05:01] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:05:03] Gannon: Thank you, Brennan.

[00:05:03] He’s great at

[00:05:03] Nathan: personalization- Yeah … and all of that. Yeah,

[00:05:04] Gannon: yeah.

[00:05:05] Nathan: Uh, fun fact about Brennan is when I was v- early on starting Kit, he was my developer friend who was in the GitHub repository checking to see-

[00:05:14] Gannon: Really? …

[00:05:14] Nathan: if the, the freelance developers that I hired were doing good commits. Wow.

[00:05:18] Gannon: Yeah. Well, that’s before everybody was on GitHub, and now you have Cloud Code and just pushing absolute nonsense, which is, I’m, I’m guilty of that stuff.

[00:05:25] Which is what you’re doing.

[00:05:26] Nathan: So going… What I’m trying to g- to get a sense of is if I have 10,000 followers and a targeted offer-

[00:05:32] Gannon: Yep …

[00:05:32] Nathan: and that’s really, like, is this something where it’s like, “Hey, you could be making $5,000 a month-”

[00:05:36] Gannon: Yeah … ”

[00:05:37] Nathan: or 50,000″? Like, w- what’s the scale that

[00:05:39] Gannon: we’re talking about here? Yeah, it’s, I mean, like, what we do w- with selling, so we use ManyChat, which we’ll get into, is, like, you, you have a really good opportunity, number one, to get somebody to buy into a lower ticket product- Mm

[00:05:49] right off the bat. Like, if you’re thinking about selling a $2,500 course or a $10,000 service in the DMs, it’s just not gonna happen. Yeah. Right? Like, no one’s gonna take out their credit card. It’s like that, um- Was it Kayak maybe? They did a commercial where it’s like, “I’m too scared to make this decision.”

[00:06:04] It’s like three, like, millennial Gen Z people are, like, trying to make a big- Yeah … decision to purchase on a phone, and they just won’t do it. Right. So, like, anything really over, like, maybe a few hundred dollars, in our case, like, we work really well with, like, $47 offers.

[00:06:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:16] Gannon: Um, it works really well in the DMs, but anything above that, like, you just have to get them over to email.

[00:06:21] Uh-huh. And the email is what sells them.

[00:06:23] Nathan: Okay, so what we’re focused on initially is getting that attention on Instagram and then translating it into-

[00:06:28] Gannon: Yeah, and all the clients we work with, um, they’re really good at getting attention.

[00:06:32] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:06:33] Gannon: But, like, we don’t solve the attention problem, but I have kind of figured it out on my own because- Mm

[00:06:37] I’ve made 4,000 videos, you know, so it’s gonna… Like, something has to work after you make 4,000 videos. I

[00:06:41] Nathan: wanna dive into that a bit later, but let’s- Yeah. For now, let’s focus on this conversion process. Cool. Yeah, yeah. So what… We’ve got the board up here.

[00:06:47] Gannon: Yeah,

[00:06:48] Nathan: yeah. What should we be drawing to dive into-

[00:06:49] Gannon: So draw, draw three boxes, right?

[00:06:50] Okay. So draw a box up here, one down here, and just- Okay. We’re going big or small? Like rectangles. Yeah, yeah. Go, go, go wide, and we can just, like- Okay … brainstorm these as time goes on. I couldn’t have done it better myself. Look at this.

[00:07:01] Nathan: Yeah. Professional right here. That’s right. Yeah. I’m just trying to, just trying to get on your level.

[00:07:05] Gannon: Yeah, so, um, this represents, uh, it, it, it’s like a funnel essentially. So you have three steps of, like, what we do and what I recommend people do, is your top of the funnel is just, like, all of your free stuff. Okay. So, so just write free. Right? So this is your lead magnet. This is your newsletter. Yep. Um, anything that you give away for free of value.

[00:07:23] Okay. Second is segment.

[00:07:26] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:26] Gannon: So just write segment in that one. It turns into an acronym that people think, “Oh, does that mean what I think it means?” And it’s like, no, it means free segment, and that upsell is the last one. Okay. So FSU, it’s not, it’s definitely not, you know-

[00:07:39] Nathan: Not what you think.

[00:07:39] Gannon: It’s not what you think.

[00:07:40] It’s definitely not what you think. Okay. It’s not a attention play either. Um, yeah, so, like, it goes from free segment to upsell. So everything you give away for free turns into an opportunity to ask questions to your audience, right?

[00:07:49] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:49] Gannon: So free is when somebody’s on a road trip, they come into your restaurant.

[00:07:54] And they’re like, “I know you have food. I know you can help me not starve on this road trip.” And then the segment question is when the waiter or waitress comes over and asks, “What do you like? What do you enjoy?” Mm-hmm. Right? So there’s good ways to ask questions, and then there’s bad ways to-

[00:08:07] Nathan: Okay …

[00:08:08] Gannon: ask questions.

[00:08:08] We can talk more about that, too.

[00:08:10] Nathan: Do you wanna dive into that now? Or get… We’ll come back to it.

[00:08:12] Gannon: Yeah, we’ll come back to it. Okay. So, like, upsell is just giving somebody an offer. And I, I say upsell, but, like, upsell’s usually just, like, a recommendation. Mm-hmm. So you can do FSR if you’re not salesy. People who don’t like being salesy.

[00:08:22] Okay. Um, so upsell’s technically not like, “Hey, you bought this for 100, buy this for 200.” Mm-hmm. It’s just, “You got this for free. Check this out as the next step.” Yeah. Right? So segment, um, when we’re thinking about segmenting questions, we, we love open-ended questions.

[00:08:39] Nathan: Okay.

[00:08:40] Gannon: So we wanna get the most accurate data from our audience for a few different reasons, and we’ll talk more about ManyChat and, like, how this plays in, but ManyChat gives you the opportunity…

[00:08:50] And for those who, like, are watching this and you’re like, “I don’t know what ManyChat is,” it’s just if you’ve ever seen somebody tell you to comment on a post-

[00:08:55] Nathan: Comment this word …

[00:08:56] Gannon: and you get this resource, they’re like, “How you do that?” Yeah. It’s just ManyChat, basically. Right. Um, most cases, ManyChat. So-

[00:09:01] Nathan: You can do it through Facebook Business Manager as well in a basic sense, right?

[00:09:05] Gannon: Yeah, you can do it for, you can do it for ads. You can do it for, um… It works on Facebook. It works on Instagram.

[00:09:10] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:11] Gannon: TikTok, kind of.

[00:09:12] Nathan: Okay.

[00:09:12] Gannon: And then, yeah. It’s-

[00:09:13] Nathan: And I, I think people do it manually on LinkedIn.

[00:09:16] Gannon: People do it manually on LinkedIn. Yeah. Um,

[00:09:19] Nathan: we’ll see if- Which

[00:09:19] Gannon: tells you that it’s

[00:09:20] Nathan: valuable enough of a thing to do that-

[00:09:23] Gannon: Yeah, I-

[00:09:23] Nathan: people believe it’s

[00:09:24] Gannon: worth doing … I just think that, that these companies don’t wanna g- expose their API data, for whatever reason. Yeah. But I think, you know, for people who wanna run businesses, it’s just a no-brainer. Right. It’s absolutely insane. Um-

[00:09:34] Nathan: Okay, so we’ve got open-ended questions.

[00:09:35] Gannon: Yeah, so the reason why open-ended questions are great is because, you know, if you ask somebody a multiple choice question, which is, like, what we do typically in a type form-

[00:09:43] Nathan: Yeah

[00:09:43] Gannon: you’re only gonna get four different responses. Mm-hmm. So- Are you

[00:09:46] Nathan: a designer, a developer- Yeah … or whatever. Yeah.

[00:09:48] Gannon: But it’s like those are, like, radio dial questions that you can ask. But you can also ask questions like, “What do you need help with the most?” Oh, okay. And if you keep that open-ended, what you can do in ManyChat is you can actually look at all of the responses that people gave you, export it as a CSV file, send it over to, like, your copywriter and be like, “This is all the responses that we have from our team- Oh, yeah

[00:10:08] or from people who went through it, and we need to update the copy in- Mm-hmm … our sales page, our, our content.” Um, but also, if you give somebody the opportunity to tell you their life story, they will tell you their life story, so. But the more data we get, the better we can go into the upsell.

[00:10:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:23] Gannon: So essentially, like, what’s happening here is, like, you know, I can, I can draw this too.

[00:10:27] Yeah, go for it. But with ManyChat, you have… Oh, this is a nice marker. I love this.

[00:10:34] Nathan: We love a good marker efficiently, how

[00:10:35] Gannon: to- This is, this is very small, but you have an I/input bucket, then you have an O/output bucket. Okay. So typically what happens when you, um, create these automations in ManyChat is you have these, um, input and output fields.

[00:10:49] So if I ask you what your biggest struggle is, if you say anything- Mm-hmm … to do with revenue, you’re gonna get put into the revenue bucket,

[00:10:56] Nathan: right? Okay.

[00:10:57] Gannon: So when you ask these questions, like, as soon as you ask the question, this input jar opens up.

[00:11:02] Nathan: Okay.

[00:11:02] Gannon: And it stays open until whatever duration you set for.

[00:11:05] Usually it’s 30 minutes. You can do 12 hours. But whatever you say gets put into that jar, and then it gets sent over to Claude, and then Claude categorizes them in that output.

[00:11:14] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:11:15] Gannon: And then you can send a conditional message based off that.

[00:11:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:11:19] Gannon: It’s a little abstract- Yeah … for the dive more so.

[00:11:21] Nathan: So in this, um, ’cause I think most people are used to segmentation where they’re just like, “Are you A, B, and C?”

[00:11:27] Yeah. Or-

[00:11:27] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:11:27] Nathan: or that sort. This is a lot more advanced. You’re saying actually for 30 minutes. Is that what you recommend is the, a 30-minute window?

[00:11:33] Gannon: So, I mean, the f- it defaults to 30 minutes. Mm-hmm. But the issue with that is, like, if you … So I, I think of it like a train station, right? So, like the 30-minute window in ManyChat- Mm-hmm

[00:11:43] says, if this person does not respond within 30 minutes, the train leaves the station. It’s not listening for their response anymore. Ah. The jar closes. So Meta has a 24-hour rule where if they respond after 24 hours, um, it’s not actually part of the automation. So they, they can’t beyond 24 hours engage in an automation anymore.

[00:12:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:01] Gannon: Um, which is-

[00:12:02] Nathan: Which prevents you- Whatever … from doing mass marketing or-

[00:12:05] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:12:05] Nathan: like Meta’s worried about people using it for spam or something else. Yeah,

[00:12:07] Gannon: yeah, exactly. So I usually, like, we default this to 12 hours, but if people- Okay … respond before that, it just pushes them along in the automation.

[00:12:14] Nathan: Okay. Yeah. So it’s just looking for a response.

[00:12:16] Gannon: It’s just m- listening- Okay … basically until the time, uh, timer goes up. But yeah, whatever they say goes into the output, and then Claude interprets that input- Yep … and then classifies them into an output.

[00:12:26] Nathan: Yep. Okay.

[00:12:27] Gannon: So we can, we can dive more on that ’cause I know it’s a little-

[00:12:29] Nathan: So basically-

[00:12:30] complicated but … yeah, what’s happening is, um-

[00:12:32] Gannon: It’s like a sorting hat in Harry Potter …

[00:12:34] Nathan: this is going in, and then we’re just gonna have that circle for Claude.

[00:12:37] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:12:38] Nathan: And then that’s gonna go into whatever the output is- Yeah … um, that’s going from there. And, and the output is the response back to the- Yeah.

[00:12:45] Gannon: So, like, you, you already kind of know, like, what your outputs are, right?

[00:12:49] Mm-hmm. You know, like, if you’re gonna create this as a multiple choice question, you have radio dials of, like, A, revenue, B, growth, um, client acquisition, whatever it is. But you give those radio responses- Mm … to Claude, and then you have Claude just categorize it for them.

[00:13:03] Nathan: Yep.

[00:13:03] Gannon: But the benefit of doing it this way is that you’ll get more accurate responses, and then you can use the actual language that your customers are using- Right

[00:13:10] and then use it for other things.

[00:13:12] Nathan: And ’cause you can use this, exactly as you’re saying, one-off-

[00:13:15] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:13:15] Nathan: to help segment that one subscriber. Yeah. But then you can m- zoom out a level and go up to that abstract level and be like, okay.

[00:13:21] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:13:22] Nathan: 500 people went through this. Yeah. What are they talking about? I mean,

[00:13:24] Gannon: we can talk about, like, what we did for Adrian and, and- Okay

[00:13:27] the camera example, right? Let’s do it. So, like, this, this is like, it’s, it’s camera, like, cinematographer stuff,

[00:13:32] Nathan: like- So for everyone who doesn’t know, uh, what’s Adrian’s content?

[00:13:34] Gannon: Adrian is a content creator who teaches other content creators how to, like, make cinematic videos. Okay. So we’re … He’s shooting on, like, a $5,000 camera, but now he’s shooting on his phone.

[00:13:42] So- Mm-hmm … just helping people make things cinematic. He was a- Okay … music video director, um, very deep in that scene. So he had this, um, this LUT pack, which is basically a filter that you put on a video to make it look nice and cinematic. Okay. And those LUTs were for different cameras. Mm-hmm. So he had one for a Sony camera.

[00:13:59] He had one for a, like, the handheld Pocket 3, and he kept making videos about the Pocket 3. And one be- Probably because he thought that, oh, this is what most, like, the everyman creator- Yeah, yeah …

[00:14:10] Nathan: is

[00:14:10] Gannon: probably using. Yeah, ’cause it, price point wise- Yeah … it’s more accessible to that audience. But we, we went through, we, we asked the question.

[00:14:17] So we had, like, the free, um, well, he, he would post content about it, and then he would drive to a sales page.

[00:14:22] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:23] Gannon: But what we did was we asked them what camera they were using, and then we sent them to a sales page for that offer. For that camera. So instead of going to, like, the menu again- Mm-hmm … right, like 40 different things on a menu, you just go to the particular thing you want based off of what we know about you.

[00:14:37] So he kept making videos about the Pocket 3, and we realized that only 8% of his audience was using the Pocket 3. So I’m like, “Dude, make more videos about the Sony. There’s 43% of your audience right now who is using a Sony camera.” Mm-hmm. The other, like, half is using an iPhone. So if you wanna sell more Sony LUTs, just make more Sony videos, and he did, and it crushed.

[00:14:57] Right. Okay. So it’s not just like now we, we tag this person in Kit that they use a Sony camera, it’s we know that 43% of our audience uses a Sony camera, so now we can make- Mm … better content decisions. So it’s like macro and it’s micro, or macro and micro. Yeah,

[00:15:10] Nathan: so that would be an, an example of an open-ended question is, like, what-

[00:15:13] Gannon: Yeah

[00:15:13] what kind of camera do you use?

[00:15:14] Nathan: Yeah. And so I can just pull it out and I can type in whatever else and, and-

[00:15:18] Gannon: Yeah … and

[00:15:19] Nathan: move

[00:15:19] Gannon: on to the next one. And the typing, like, of the experience of that is much better than just clicking, like, A, B, C, or D. Yeah. It just makes it seem more human, but people just aren’t familiar with, like, conversational.

[00:15:27] Okay,

[00:15:27] Nathan: because ManyChat will happily let you-

[00:15:29] Gannon: Oh, you can- … choose

[00:15:30] Nathan: A, B, C, or D.

[00:15:31] Gannon: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:15:31] Nathan: And you’re saying don’t do that.

[00:15:33] Gannon: Yeah, I mean, you c- it’s, it’s easier to set it up that way, but we use cloud ’cause we wanna make it seem conversational. Right. Like, people don’t know they’re ta- they’re talking to an automation.

[00:15:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:41] Gannon: It’s, uh, it’s very conversational. And is

[00:15:42] Nathan: that the same, like, across all of your

[00:15:43] Gannon: clients? Yeah, we don’t, we don’t use multiple choice questions.

[00:15:45] Nathan: Okay.

[00:15:46] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:15:46] Nathan: Mm.

[00:15:46] Gannon: Okay, so we said, um, like, good versus bad. Yeah. Is that good versus bad questions, or you’re, like, open-ended? Like,

[00:15:52] Nathan: can we make a list of, like, do this, not that?

[00:15:54] Gannon: Um, yeah, so when … Well, there’s, there’s things that are good about open-ended questions, and then there’s things about, that are bad about open que- open-ended questions, but there’s also good ways to ask an open-ended question, and the bad way to open it, ask an open-ended question. Okay,

[00:16:07] Nathan: yeah, let’s dive in on that part

[00:16:08] Gannon: of it.

[00:16:08] Yeah. All right. So yeah, so you, like, whenever we’re asking somebody a question, we’re trying to figure out, like, where are they trying to go.

[00:16:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:14] Gannon: Right? So if-

[00:16:16] Nathan: Yeah, what should I write down?

[00:16:17] Gannon: Yeah, so, like, what are your goals in the next, like- Mm-hmm … 6 to 12 months? Goals and timeline. Yep.

[00:16:21] Nathan: There we go.

[00:16:22] Gannon: Um, I mean, it’s like, like, that’s pretty much, like, what we’re doing.

[00:16:24] Like, that’s the main segmenting question, right? We can ask other-

[00:16:27] Nathan: So what’s the

[00:16:28] Gannon: example- … like, accessory questions … would

[00:16:29] Nathan: you say as generically as, like- What, w- what’s the … If Adrian were to use a goals and timeline question-

[00:16:35] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:16:35] Nathan: what would it be?

[00:16:36] Gannon: It would be like, why, why do you wanna make cinematic videos?

[00:16:39] Mm-hmm. Like, is it for audience growth? Do you wanna look- Mm … more, um, professional because you wanna attract more clients? So would a lot of

[00:16:43] Nathan: these questions start with why?

[00:16:45] Gannon: Yeah. It’s usually- Okay … a why question.

[00:16:46] Nathan: Yep.

[00:16:47] Gannon: Yeah. Yeah, why is more open-ended than, like, what, right? Mm. Like, what do you use- Yep … versus why do you use it.

[00:16:53] Nathan: Yep.

[00:16:53] Gannon: Or why do you want to use it? Okay, so I’m

[00:16:54] Nathan: gonna go-

[00:16:55] Gannon: Uh, that’s, like, not necessarily bad, but it’s not gonna help somebody make a decision-

[00:17:00] Nathan: Right …

[00:17:00] Gannon: ultimately, right?

[00:17:01] Nathan: Yep. That makes sense.

[00:17:02] Gannon: Um, at least for, like, a higher ticket offer, right? Because, like, if you’re selling a $39 lut, like, what camera do you use, of course, it’s gonna help them make a decision.

[00:17:10] But it’s like

[00:17:10] Nathan: w- Okay. So you might u- Yeah. Would you ever use both, like in this case?

[00:17:16] Gannon: Well, yeah. I m- m- we do this for, like, applications for what we do. Mm-hmm. So I run automations for applications in my DMs. And I’m always like, “You know, what platforms do you use? What’s your current revenue?” Mm-hmm. “But, like, why are you trying to figure out ManyChat right now?”

[00:17:29] Nathan: So then, w- do we … We’re gonna have a flow then that starts- Yeah … with, uh, what camera do you use, or, you know, why are you trying to-

[00:17:38] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:17:39] Nathan: do that. It’s usually multiple. And then later on, it’s gonna ask-

[00:17:40] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:17:41] Nathan: other questions?

[00:17:42] Gannon: Yeah. So, you’re basically, like … For, for lower ticket, it’s … I think it’s fine to ask just, like- Mm

[00:17:48] what types of questions. But if you’re going for, you sell a service, or you sell a course where someone’s- Mm … gonna have to spend more than 100 bucks, you wanna get them talking.

[00:17:58] Nathan: Right.

[00:17:58] Gannon: And then it’s like a sales call, right? Like, you’re not gonna just be like, “What do you use? What do you use? What do you use?”

[00:18:03] Like, “All right, cool. I can recommend you this.” It’s just … No, it’s like- Why do you do this? … why are you here? Why are you here? Yeah. Yeah. Like, there’s something that caused you to, to trigger this automation. What was it? Tell me what it was.

[00:18:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:14] Gannon: And then as soon as we know that information, we then pitch everything else based off that.

[00:18:18] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense. Okay, so then … Well, let’s go to the, the free side for a minute.

[00:18:23] Gannon: Yeah. What are- We can talk about content.

[00:18:24] Nathan: Yeah. The … What’s the, the free content that gets people to, to actually engage and, and to start this funnel?

[00:18:30] Gannon: Yeah, it’s … I mean, I have this, like, PSA style story that I use all the time, where it’s like, “PSA, if you have this problem-

[00:18:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:18:37] Gannon: you’re probably making this mistake. I used to make this mistake, and I got this result- Mm … by changing it.”

[00:18:42] Nathan: Okay. Yeah,

[00:18:42] Gannon: interesting. “But I’m not telling somebody how I changed it. In order to learn how I changed it, they have to get the free thing.”

[00:18:48] Nathan: Comment this

[00:18:49] Gannon: word. Yeah, reply with this, with this word, comment this word.

[00:18:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:52] Gannon: And it goes from there.

[00:18:53] Nathan: Oh, ’cause you’re … You said reply ’cause it’s also … It

[00:18:56] Gannon: could be a story. It’s a story. Yeah, it could be an Instagram story. Yep. It could be, like, a DM. It could be a comment on a post.

[00:18:59] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:00] Gannon: And, um, yeah, that’s … It’s typically PSA. But, like, there’s one f- i- if there’s, like, one framework that I try to teach, it’s, like, in order to get somebody to go through this automation, like, you have to tell them to do it.

[00:19:12] It sounds stupid. Right. But people don’t do it. It’s like, I just- Yeah … have this automation, and then they bury it. Like, in journalism, it’s called burying the lead, right? Mm-hmm. So, like, your, your call to action is your lead- Right … in your, your caption. So it should be the first thing people see.

[00:19:26] Nathan: And, uh, as a marketer, I used the correct lead there, right?

[00:19:28] Uh- Uh, yeah.

[00:19:29] Gannon: That’s right. The journal- Don’t do the lead, not L-E-A-D. That’s a jour- Yeah.

[00:19:33] Nathan: That’s a journalism lead, not a- Yeah … marketer’s

[00:19:35] Gannon: lead. Yeah. Um, yeah, so, like, you wanna have the call to action in the first sentence of the video. Mm. And, like, typically what most people do, like, if you, if you draw a re- retention chart, I know you probably can on this side, right?

[00:19:47] So, like, just draw, like, an X and Y axis. Yeah, something

[00:19:49] Nathan: like

[00:19:50] Gannon: that? Yeah, yeah. It’s good. So, like, as time goes on in the video, like, somebody might… They start watching here, so, like, just say that this is, um, duration of the video.

[00:19:59] Nathan: Yep.

[00:20:00] Gannon: And then as time goes on, there’s less and less people that are still on the video.

[00:20:05] Nathan: Right.

[00:20:05] Gannon: So what people do is they’re like, “Let me just put the call to action at the end, ’cause I don’t wanna seem salesy.” Mm-hmm. “But I still want people to go through it.” It’s just like, well, now you have 5% of your audience seeing it, so, like-

[00:20:14] Nathan: Right …

[00:20:15] Gannon: yeah. So what you can do is kinda like flip this, so it’s, this is the hook right here, right?

[00:20:20] Okay. And then you can say, “By the way, if you wanna learn more about this, just comment the word X at any point in the video.” Mm. “And I’ll send you more information.” Yeah. And then you just continue with that tutorial.

[00:20:28] Nathan: So we’re gonna get the CTA-

[00:20:30] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:20:30] Nathan: early. You said in the first sentence.

[00:20:33] Gannon: Yeah, I mean- So more, as early as possible

[00:20:34] I usually go, like, I usually go, like, hook, transition with, like, a short CTA-

[00:20:40] Nathan: Okay …

[00:20:40] Gannon: and then the rest of the video.

[00:20:42] Nathan: Yeah, okay. So you said hook, transition.

[00:20:44] Gannon: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:45] Nathan: Then we’re gonna have a CT- s- a smaller CTA?

[00:20:47] Gannon: Basically, yeah, a CTA.

[00:20:49] Nathan: So we’re gonna do

[00:20:50] Gannon: a CTA here. And then I’ll just write, like, meat of the content. I just write meat.

[00:20:55] Um. Just the bulk of the content.

[00:20:56] Nathan: And then another, like a- And then CTA … a full CTA. Yeah, so like- And this is gonna be, like, a bigger CTA. Um, okay, uh, give me a script of a video. Like, what, what’s one that you’ve done? What would the hook be?

[00:21:06] Gannon: Yeah, I mean, I do breakdowns of, like, creators and, like, how they run their business.

[00:21:09] So it’s like I spent the last, you know, 36 hours of my life reverse engineering how Nathan Barry runs his social media profile. Yeah. Um, and I learned that, you know, s- a- a- and if you do the same thing that Narry, uh, that Barr- uh, Nathan does then- Yep … this is, th- pay attention because this is what I would do, right?

[00:21:28] So it’s like you kind of set stakes, and you tell people what they’re going to learn. And if they know who you’re talking about, they’re gonna be like, “Oh, okay.” Mm-hmm. “So like he runs a similar type of business that I do. Let me pay attention.” And then you can say, “By the way, at any point, if you’re like, ‘I wanna learn this exact breakdown because I only have three minutes to teach it,’ I have a full YouTube video.

[00:21:45] Comment the word tube, and I’ll send it over to you.” And then you go through, like, the full thing. Mm-hmm. And then you’re like, “Again, if you want the full tutorial, I have three minutes. Like, I can’t do this in three minutes, but comment the word tube, and I’ll send it over to you.” Yeah.

[00:21:55] Nathan: Okay. So that’s that, that light touch on the CTA- Yeah

[00:21:58] and then a deeper touch-

[00:21:59] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:22:00] Nathan: um, on from there. What about from the storytelling side of things? Like, what makes a difference in actually retaining people through the s- you know, the stories that you’re telling or the narrative there?

[00:22:12] Gannon: Yeah, I mean, I’m actually … I’m in the process of writing one right now for, uh, the keynote that I’m giving.

[00:22:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:22:17] Gannon: Um, so I have a partnership with a company who just released a new, uh, like, presentation remote.

[00:22:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:23] Gannon: And I’m like, how do I tell the story of, like, this being my first keynote and being, like, nervous because I’ve never talked in front of this many people, but also, like, the features of this remote and how it’s gonna help me prepare for this keynote?

[00:22:34] So I’m thinking about, like- You know, y- you have to set the stakes of, like, what’s actually the problem here that we’re trying to solve, and how are we gonna solve it?

[00:22:43] Nathan: Okay.

[00:22:44] Gannon: And it’s like before, during, and after, but it’s more than just, like, what people do is they’ll, like, tell the story and be like, “This happened, and this happened, and this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened.”

[00:22:56] So it’s like, “Oh, I have a presentation, and then I got this remote, and then I presented because the remote was cool. I did a good job, and that’s it.” It’s like, well, no, it has to be deeper than that. It’s like-

[00:23:04] Nathan: You need tension in it. Mm-hmm …

[00:23:05] Gannon: there’s something in the story that you have to talk about that will get somebody to continue wanting to watch to see what happens.

[00:23:12] Okay. So, like, an example of that is like, “I have my first keynote. Cool. Oh, I am anxious about this, and I’ve never pr- did a keynote in front of 500 people before, and I don’t know what I’m gonna do.” So it’s like, “I have a keynote, but I have this problem.”

[00:23:27] Nathan: Mm. ”

[00:23:28] Gannon: And then I wanna solve this, and you’re gonna come with me to solve this problem.”

[00:23:31] Okay. So it’s, this happened, but-

[00:23:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:23:35] Gannon: this is going on, and we have to get somewhere else. And how do we do that? So in that,

[00:23:39] Nathan: if we were to map it out, ’cause I think a lot of people are gonna fall into the and, and, and-

[00:23:43] Gannon: Yeah, of course …

[00:23:44] Nathan: storytelling. So

[00:23:44] Gannon: we’re

[00:23:45] Nathan: contrasting these two. Well, for,

[00:23:45] Gannon: for tutorial based, it’s, it’s definitely gonna be and, and, and.

[00:23:48] But, you know, you wanna somehow set the stakes of this.

[00:23:52] Nathan: So it’s like we’re like this and this and this. So w- what you’re saying is that we’re gonna say, like, “This happened, but-”

[00:24:02] Gannon: Yeah … ”

[00:24:03] Nathan: this, therefore, the end.”

[00:24:06] Gannon: Yeah. The end. There we go. So, like, an example of this and, like, what I’ve tried to get good at is doing this tutorial based.

[00:24:14] Nathan: Oh, okay.

[00:24:15] Gannon: Right? So, like, how do I teach a tutorial but also set stakes- Mm … for why somebody should watch?

[00:24:20] Nathan: Okay.

[00:24:20] Gannon: So an example of that is, like, how I structure almost all of my videos where I do breakdowns. It’s like I spent 96 hours doing this and researching how they run their business. And I think there is something they can fix.

[00:24:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:34] Gannon: And then you explain what they’re currently doing well, and then you go into, like, what they could fix. The payoff. So like, the but is, is the transition- Right … there, right? Um- Let’s use an

[00:24:45] Nathan: example of this because, uh- Yeah … two days ago, we- … got to hang out- That’s right … in the mountains of Idaho. And you came flying with me.

[00:24:54] That’s

[00:24:54] Gannon: right. I flew the plane.

[00:24:55] Nathan: You flew the plane. I definitely flew the

[00:24:56] Gannon: plane,

[00:24:57] Nathan: to be clear. We have video evidence of you

[00:24:59] Gannon: flying the

[00:24:59] Nathan: plane.

[00:24:59] Gannon: That’s right.

[00:24:59] Nathan: Mm-hmm. So you, you made an Instagram video about this. Most people would say, “I was going to Boise, and I really like airplanes.” Yeah,

[00:25:06] Gannon: yeah. ”

[00:25:07] Nathan: And, uh, so I thought maybe I’d reach out to Nathan, and then it worked out, and I got to go flying.”

[00:25:13] Gannon: Yeah, that’s it. It’s like, okay, well, thanks for sharing. I’m glad it kept that to yourself. Yeah, exactly. It’s cool, but like, uh,

[00:25:17] Nathan: thank you. It’s like, “I’m happy for you.” Yeah. Or the response you get is like, “That’s cool.”

[00:25:21] Gannon: Yeah. “Good

[00:25:22] Nathan: job.” Uh, I think- Your video does not follow that

[00:25:23] Gannon: formula. No. Uh, so, like, I, I actually think I could have done a better job with the video.

[00:25:27] Um, the reason why I like the word but is because I think … Like, this might sound woo-woo, but it’s an opportunity to, like, express who you are and, like, what you’ve gone through, right? So, like, for the presentation, the keynote, it’s like, “I’m about to give a keynote, but I have anxiety.” Right. Like, “I d- I’m not comfortable onstage.

[00:25:46] We’re gonna see what happens.” And then it’s like, for the video that we did, uh, on the plane, it’s like, “I’m about to go to Idaho, but I don’t wanna just go to Idaho.”

[00:25:54] Nathan: Right. ”

[00:25:54] Gannon: I have an opportunity to do something with the CEO of a company who owns a plane.” Yeah. “So let’s see if we can get on the plane.” Yep. And, like, that’s kind of setting the stakes, but it’s also like- And then you build

[00:26:02] Nathan: up to like, “Is it going to work?”

[00:26:03] You know? Like, you’re like, “Oh, he, uh, he liked

[00:26:07] Gannon: my post.” He s- “He followed me.” He liked my post. He followed me. His team reached out, and then, like, he picked me up at the hotel. And he started wheeling the plane out. I’m like, “Oh, okay, this is happening.” “This is happening.” Yeah. “This is, this is not fake. No, this is real.”

[00:26:17] But yeah, like, it … When you use but, it’s just an opportunity to, like, share with people, like, what’s happening and how you’re thinking. Um, and y- yeah, like there’s, there’s ways to do it that are, like, not as, like, deep and personal, that you don’t have to go crazy with, like, you know, telling people about your personal life.

[00:26:32] But it’s just a, an example of, like, showing how you think, right? So the tutorial example is like, “I studied this person’s funnel, but based on my work with clients, I think it could actually be a little bit better. So let me show you what’s working and show you what I would change and why I would change it.”

[00:26:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:47] Gannon: And then you just do that.

[00:26:48] Nathan: Something that stood out to me in your video is the way that you made it, like, a, so much of a personal story. And it wasn’t just one but, it was like-

[00:26:57] Gannon: Yeah … ‘

[00:26:57] Nathan: cause the payoff was, oh, you’re actually going flying.

[00:26:59] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:27:00] Nathan: But then you had the later of, like, but it’s actually bumpy.

[00:27:05] Like, we’re flying over- It’s, it’s

[00:27:05] Gannon: bumpy.

[00:27:06] Nathan: I’m flying the plane. Yeah, like, I was trying

[00:27:09] Gannon: to

[00:27:09] Nathan: be like … I love the line where you’re like, “My man.” I said I wanna fly in your plane. Like, are you sure? Are you sure about that? I wanna fly your plane. You did great. If everyone’s

[00:27:18] Gannon: wondering-

[00:27:18] Nathan: Thank you … if you was watching, Gannon’s a great pilot.

[00:27:20] Gannon: I’m not, I’m way back, you know. It was, it was a little bit better, but

[00:27:24] Nathan: you know. We did all right. You’re weaving that all the way through.

[00:27:27] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:27:27] Nathan: If we take that video, that video is exactly 60 seconds long.

[00:27:30] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:27:31] Nathan: Uh, why is it 60 seconds long?

[00:27:33] Gannon: I don’t think it needs more than that. Okay. I think it’s like, you know, what is, what is the, the way that I wanna come across with my audience?

[00:27:40] Mm. And, like, what do I wanna share? And I think the video is more about how I’m willing to just put myself out there to do- Yeah … side quests than it is of just, like, “Hey, let me message the CEO and get on a plane.”

[00:27:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:27:53] Gannon: It’s like, no, this is what happens when you just put things out in the universe and just see what happens.

[00:27:58] So it’s more about that than it is about, like, Gannon was on a plane in the middle of- Right … Idaho, right? It’s like, we don’t know. Um, yeah, so like 60 seconds, the way that I kind of like think about videos is, like, if I write this and I read it in my head like 15 times, it’s always what can I remove, what can I remove, what can I remove?

[00:28:17] Mm. And if the video still makes sense, I remove it. But if I’m like, I can remove this sentence, and the video’s still good, it’s gone. But if it’s there, and I’m like, this doesn’t really contribute to, like, whatever plot is in my head, like if I was telling this at a dinner table, like somebody’d be like, “Yeah, you probably don’t need to, like, mention that.”

[00:28:34] Right. They would never say that, but it’s like what contributes to the, to the emotion and, like, what’s happening in this video? And if it doesn’t contribute to anything, then just get rid of it. Yeah, it’s like giving yourself a rubric, but if you do it 4,000 times, it’s gonna make sense eventually. But- That’s just how my brain works at this point.

[00:28:50] So,

[00:28:51] Nathan: so then how do you know when a video is done, or a script is done?

[00:28:54] Gannon: Yes. When you, when there’s nothing else… This is like a quote. If I’m gonna… If, if… I wish I put this in like my senior year- Yeah … like high school quote, but it’s like, “Something is done not when there’s nothing else left to add, but when there’s nothing else left to remove.”

[00:29:06] Yeah. Right? I forget. It’s, that’s an artist quote. I forget who it was.

[00:29:08] Nathan: Antoine de Saint Exupery- Probably …

[00:29:11] Gannon: I believe. Yeah, yeah.

[00:29:11] Nathan: However you say his name. His name. Um- We

[00:29:14] Gannon: give him credit.

[00:29:15] Nathan: Uh, yeah, but then that’s such an important thing.

[00:29:18] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:29:18] Nathan: Because when I make Instagram content, this is why yours works and mine doesn’t.

[00:29:21] Is I just like, uh, rattle something off and I’m like, “Ah, it’s pretty good. Post it.”

[00:29:25] Gannon: Yeah. You know? I mean, it works for some people, but I think like, it’s the people who have done like the actual scripting-

[00:29:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:29:34] Gannon: so many times, or they just consume so much where they just know kinda like what’s the format that I need to follow here.

[00:29:40] Mm-hmm. And I feel like I can pick up a camera and just yab like, which is like the most- Right … popular format of videos right now, but I’ll still have to cut things out. Mm-hmm. Right? So like, uh, I’m not trying to fulfill a 60-second video, I’m just trying to cut things down to where it makes sense, and it just so happens that it is 60 seconds.

[00:29:57] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:57] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:29:58] Nathan: That

[00:29:58] Gannon: makes sense.

[00:29:59] Nathan: Okay, so what else, if we’re talking about the, the free side, or the at- attention or all of that- Mm-hmm … is there anything else that we haven’t covered that, that’s important?

[00:30:07] Gannon: Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s really like, I, I think the big thing on the free side is that your stories are gonna get the most engaged people.

[00:30:15] Nathan: Okay.

[00:30:15] Gannon: So like, if you think about like a- And you don’t mean storytelling,

[00:30:17] Nathan: you mean-

[00:30:17] Gannon: No, just like your actual Instagram stories … your, your Instagram stories, the feature. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, if there’s anything that somebody’s gonna do today, it’s take a selfie, delete all of your Instagram stories right now, or archive them, post that selfie, put PSA if you have this problem, you’re probably making this mistake.

[00:30:32] Mm. If you wanna solve it, I solved it this way. And if you wanna learn- Okay … how to do it, we’ll go through that. We’re

[00:30:36] Nathan: diving into this. What marker am I using? So we’re doing an Instagram story.

[00:30:40] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:30:40] Nathan: This,

[00:30:41] Gannon: this vertical box. So yeah, yeah. And you can draw like a self-portrait here, and it’s like a, it’s a Nathan selfie.

[00:30:46] There we go. There it is. Uh, look at that.

[00:30:48] Nathan: Uh, you got style. And so we’re just going PSA. Yeah,

[00:30:51] Gannon: big PSA on top. And then- It’s like, if you have X problem- Yeah … if you’re, if you’re currently dealing with this, you’re probably making this mistake. So it’s like if you’re not making money on Instagram, or you’re not making money through your Instagram story, you’re probably not following the PSA format.

[00:31:08] And people are like, “What is the PSA format?” Right?

[00:31:11] Nathan: And are you saying?

[00:31:13] Gannon: No, it’s just a video. So like, or it’s, it’s a, it’s a picture, so it’s just like this sentence would go here, right? So like, if you’re making this mistake, or if you have this problem making this mistake, and then the next sentence, which if you wanna write out you can, would be, “I got this result by following a new format.”

[00:31:28] Mm. Like, this would be like I, I f- I solved it by doing this.

[00:31:32] Nathan: And so then we’re going, um, so we’re just like, uh,

[00:31:36] Gannon: result, method- For like, I would say cred- cred- credibility too. Like, I solved this problem by doing, by changing this Yeah, and like result and credibility plus like what was the method behind doing it.

[00:31:50] Without explanation. But, but also, yeah, like vague. Like very vague.

[00:31:53] Nathan: Method, there we go. And we’re going vague. The result said in a way that gives you credibility. The method stated in a way that’s-

[00:32:01] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:32:01] Nathan: that’s vague.

[00:32:02] Gannon: Yeah, yeah. And then- So it’s reply. Yeah. Just so it’s like call to action. Uh-huh. It’s like, “I stopped by doing this.

[00:32:08] If you want to learn how to do it…” And then that is, uh, about the same size as the p- the PSA, so you’re just like CTA right here. I usually do like a different color, like yellow background- Mm … black text, whatever- Yep … like it needs to be, but-

[00:32:20] Nathan: And the CTA is just, “You wanna learn how to do it, reply.” Reply

[00:32:25] Gannon: tube if you want the full tutorial.

[00:32:27] If somebody who has like… I mean, i- it’s gonna be different for everybody, but this- Yep … typically, for me, reaches like 15 to 20% of my followers. Or it’ll get- Oh, wow … 50… Well, it might not all be my followers- Sure … ’cause some people will send it to other people, but it’ll be like roughly a 20% margin of like what my follower count is.

[00:32:44] So- This’ll be like 30,000 views on this …

[00:32:47] Nathan: if you have an audience on Instagram, but you’re not making money, you’re probably making this mistake.

[00:32:52] Gannon: Yeah, you’re probably not using the PSA story framework.

[00:32:55] Nathan: Yep.

[00:32:55] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:32:56] Nathan: I used it-

[00:32:58] Gannon: Yes …

[00:32:58] Nathan: to make X result.

[00:33:01] Gannon: It got 30,000 views and made me $1,500 in 24 hours.

[00:33:05] Nathan: Yep.

[00:33:05] Gannon: If you wanna learn what I’m talking about, just reply with this, and I’ll send it over to you.

[00:33:09] Mm. That’s a lead magnet. And then you collect name and email. You send them to whatever page you have the tutorial on. It could be like a Loom video, Televideo, whatever it is, and then you follow up 20 minutes later.

[00:33:22] Nathan: The free side, this could be reels. This could be stories.

[00:33:26] Gannon: Carousel posts as

[00:33:26] Nathan: well. Carousel posts.

[00:33:27] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:33:28] Nathan: Um, how many times, like in all of your content, how many times would you weave in- … one of these things?

[00:33:33] Gannon: A lot. Okay. Um, I can say it. I, like I can do it often, I think, because people just have come to know me for being like- Mm-hmm … that automation ManyChat guy, so like it’s not gonna like turn anybody off.

[00:33:44] If I had to give somebody a number, probably like 70 to 80% of the time, I think you’d have… you should have a CTA in all of your content. Okay. Mm-hmm. Um, obviously, some of my videos are like more personal, so I’m not gonna be like, “Hey, I just proposed to my girlfriend. You know, comment wedding if you wanna like, you know, see how we’re planning our wedding.”

[00:34:03] Like, we just don’t do that.

[00:34:04] Nathan: So something else I wanna talk about is the… There’s this idea on a lot of platforms that if you send traffic off platform or if you do something that is like selfish to benefit you-

[00:34:14] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:34:15] Nathan: then the platform will penal- penalize you.

[00:34:16] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:34:16] Nathan: But if I look at anyone’s profile, and let’s say, I don’t know, there’s a nice little, their face up here, and then, uh, I don’t know, they’ve got 10K subs- Yep

[00:34:26] or followers, right? If we have a grid of posts, and one of them-

[00:34:32] Gannon: Yeah … you know, I’m scrolling through it,

[00:34:33] Nathan: and w- you know, it’s like 2,000 to 3,000, 2,000, whatever, and then this one right here-

[00:34:39] Gannon: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:40] Nathan: has 50,000 views. There’s like a 90% chance that this has a comment to DM on it 100%,

[00:34:49] Gannon: yeah. And it’s, it’s actually 100% they do.

[00:34:50] Yeah, so like if you go on your Instagram like analytics, your insights for a post, it’ll- Mm … actually, I think their most recent update lists the, uh, engagement in order of like how important it is for being recommended to a new audience.

[00:35:01] Nathan: Okay.

[00:35:02] Gannon: So it’ll show like Saves, sends, comments, likes, and I don’t know, I think that might be it.

[00:35:10] I think there’s like- Mm-hmm … four or five of them. But, like, comments are still ranked pretty high. So, like, when you have a ManyChat automation turned on, it counts as a comment, and then when you reply back to their comment with a ManyChat automation, it doubles the amount of comments on the post.

[00:35:24] Nathan: Wild that that

[00:35:25] Gannon: works.

[00:35:25] So, like, uh, like, people have said, like, it doesn’t really have any effect on the content, but, like- Mm … why is it that every time I do it, it has, like, a 4X outlier? Like, the data just tells me that whoever is saying that that doesn’t make sense is, is just incorrect.

[00:35:40] Nathan: Yeah, and I mean, like, I am a, um, amateur, a student, student from a distance.

[00:35:46] Yeah. And I’m like, “This stands out ridiculously.”

[00:35:48] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:35:48] Nathan: Um, okay, so if you, if we were to, like, pull up my content right now- Mm-hmm … what you’d see is I, instead of 70 to 80% of content having a CTA- Yeah. I’m probably 3 to 5%. 3 to 5%. And so you probably think I’m insane, right?

[00:36:02] Gannon: Like, what would your CTA be? I mean, we can do, like, a masterclass.

[00:36:04] Okay. Like, ro- like, roast of Nathan’s content right now. Yeah. Like…

[00:36:08] Nathan: Um, I mean, there’s a bunch of things that I could do.

[00:36:10] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:36:10] Nathan: I don’t have a lot of lead magnets, um, and that kind of thing.

[00:36:14] Gannon: So, like, for your book, like, what are

[00:36:15] Nathan: you doing for your book? Yeah, so CTA for the book. Yeah. Uh, so the book is The Ladders of Wealth.

[00:36:18] Yeah. Comes out December 8th.

[00:36:19] Gannon: Ooh. Pre-order.

[00:36:21] Nathan: Uh, okay, so we could do a sample chapter.

[00:36:23] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:36:23] Nathan: I have a free email course on- Cool … um, like, how to grow your audience- Cool … that I’m working on putting together. Um, any content I do have about flywheels, I have, like, a library of 10 flywheels. Yeah. Um, those are kind of things that exist today.

[00:36:40] Gannon: So the goal is to eventually get somebody to pre-order or buy the book- Yeah … when it comes out, right?

[00:36:45] Nathan: Yeah, that’d be great.

[00:36:45] Gannon: So who in your audience, like, what are the groups of people in your audience who are best served from this book? Like, entrepreneurs or, like, early career entrepreneurs? Yeah,

[00:36:54] Nathan: anyone, um, any, any entrepreneur.

[00:36:57] Yeah. They could be early, probably early or mid-stage. Yeah. Late stage, they’re gonna be like, honestly, the late stage love, they love frameworks. Yeah. They love all of that. So entrepreneurs in

[00:37:05] Gannon: general. You can also, like, just poll your audience- Mm-hmm … with your newsletter and just be like, “Where are you at in your career?”

[00:37:11] Like, you know, for, for me, it’s like I wanna understand how you built Kit. Mm. And, like, maybe some of your past mistakes with your previous companies and, like, how I can not make those mistakes moving forward. But it’s helpful for you to know, like, why am I interested in this book, right? So if you talk about it in your content, and you’re like, “Hey, I’m releasing it on December 8th if you want a free chapter of it,” because now they have context of what the book’s about.

[00:37:36] Yeah. Now you know, like, how am I gonna eventually get this person to pre-order it? Like, what is the information that I need from this person in order to pitch it properly? And it might just be like, “What are your career goals?” Yeah. Like, do you wanna be this entrepreneur? Do you wanna, like- You know, whatever this is at D- but you can even go

[00:37:51] Nathan: go fully open-ended.

[00:37:52] You could just say What are your, yeah, what are your money related g- like, why do you wanna start a business?

[00:37:56] Gannon: Yeah, like it’s, that’s it. And

[00:37:57] Nathan: someone would be like, “I

[00:37:57] Gannon: don’t.” It’s like,

[00:37:58] Nathan: okay, fine.

[00:37:59] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:37:59] Nathan: But

[00:38:00] Gannon: And then you can just like liquid code and be like, s- you di- you mentioned that you didn’t wanna start a business, but you’re here for my book, so, like, what made you want- What’s up, man?

[00:38:06] Yeah. Like, how you doing? Um, but that’s like, that’s basically what we do. So, like- Mm-hmm … you know, you, uh, i- even if your pre-order link is not open yet, you can still start building, like, that pre-order wait list.

[00:38:18] Nathan: Right.

[00:38:18] Gannon: And then just get whatever information you need from your audience of like- Right … maybe it’s that why question, and then you put that into a custom field in Kit, and then you just start every email off with that same line.

[00:38:28] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:28] Gannon: So, like, if this, if subscriber customer field equals, um, or is like, you know- entrepreneur or aspiring entrepreneur, whatever it would be. It’s how do we start the email off with that, and then pitch them in the rest of the email the same way that everybody else gets that same email. Yeah. Right? So I think it’s just about, like, you have to understand that people have more context than you realize after watching a video.

[00:38:55] Nathan: Mm.

[00:38:55] Gannon: And they’ve taken the action to request even more information. So people tend to over explain in their ManyChat automation. So like, “I can’t wait for you to see my tutorial. I’m gonna cover X, Y, Z.” I’m like, they know that. Like, you don’t have to say it again. So they just want the thing. Right. And you can just send it to them, they can register.

[00:39:14] So what I would do if I were you, is I would add them to, like, a form in Kit.

[00:39:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:17] Gannon: And then five minutes later ask them, like, what they’re looking forward to most about the book. Like, what are they trying to solve in their life right now that they think the book will help with? And then you take that information, add them to, like, what I call a phantom form.

[00:39:30] So it’s a form that doesn’t exist anywhere, like, on a website. Publicly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we just use that to transfer data over-

[00:39:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:39:36] Gannon: um, and update their contact.

[00:39:38] Nathan: Okay. So

[00:39:38] Gannon: yeah.

[00:39:39] Nathan: So, uh, let’s go with another example. Let, let’s say, ’cause my other world besides writing books- Yeah. … is, is I run Kit. That’s

[00:39:46] Gannon: right.

[00:39:46] Nathan: You know? And I would like to get lots of creators to- Yeah … set up their email list on Kit.

[00:39:50] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:39:50] Nathan: Uh, you’ve done a lot of content about Kit. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, you work with a lot of Kit customers. You bring us lots of customers. That’s right. Thank you for that. That’s right. Um, what… You know, if I was putting out content directly to promote Kit- Mm-hmm

[00:40:03] you know, and that’s the sale that we’re trying to make, is to get a creator to sign up either for a free or paid, paid account.

[00:40:07] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:40:07] Nathan: What’s the flow that you would put together? Like, type of, like, things we would emphasize on the free end and kind of the segmenting that we would do.

[00:40:12] Gannon: Well, I think, I think you’re in a unique position because, like, you have the power to leverage the CEO thing.

[00:40:17] Mm-hmm. But you also don’t wanna step on, like, other people’s toes and be like, why is the CEO of a company, like, telling me that what I’m doing is wrong? Mm-hmm. So you have to be- There’s a line to walk … careful with that. Um, I would do more, like, case studies, I think. Okay. But also kind of show, like, your way of thinking.

[00:40:35] Like, if you were brought in to, like, consult with this creator on how they would, they should run Kit, show them how they would do it. And what’s gonna happen is, like, people like that creator who might follow them, like, you’re kind of leveraging their audience.

[00:40:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:40:48] Gannon: But they might have people in their audience who are interested in, like, what they do and might have a similar business and be like, “Oh, shit.

[00:40:54] Like, Kit might be the thing that I wanna try.” Uh, that’s what works for me.

[00:40:59] Nathan: Yep.

[00:40:59] Gannon: I think it’s less about, um… I feel like the game you’re, you’re playing on, on the content side right now is more, like, you know, documenting and, like- trying to connect more with the audience, which is, which is good. But I don’t know if it’s going to create, like, i- incentivize people to start, like, in maybe signing up for Kit.

[00:41:20] Nathan: Right. Like- If there’s one thing that we care about- Yeah … is, and that’s making money-

[00:41:23] Gannon: That’s right. …

[00:41:24] Nathan: from Instagram. And so that’s something that would change. So what I hear you saying is you’re noticing my content is about connection, about relevance, like all of those things, and you’re like, “Great.”

[00:41:33] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:41:34] Nathan: Happy for you. Glad it’s working.

[00:41:35] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:41:36] Nathan: But if you want leads,

[00:41:37] Gannon: and you want revenue- It’s like, why do, why do people use Kit? Because- They wanna make- … for, for me, it’s like I think it’s the best UI, UX experience. Mm-hmm. It’s simple. It does exactly what I need it to do, and it has an integration with ManyChat.

[00:41:48] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:49] Gannon: And it does, it checks all the boxes for, like, what I need. But somebody else might be like, “Well, it has the creator network, and that’s where I wanna get those recommendations from,” or, “It allows me to sell products. It has liquid code,” which is one of my check boxes too.

[00:42:00] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:42:00] Gannon: Right? So, like, there’s a balance between what do I do in my content that’s gonna help me connect with my audience.

[00:42:07] Mm-hmm. So, like, for me, it’s like I was on your plane. Right. That was a- Like, it has nothing to do with ManyChat.

[00:42:11] Nathan: That was very much a connection

[00:42:12] Gannon: post. Right. I don’t care how m- how many likes it gets. Like, if, if it makes somebody, like, I can post things on the internet- Mm-hmm … then it’ll eventually get me to a point where, like, you realize you can just do things.

[00:42:22] Shout out to Jay

[00:42:23] Nathan: Yang. Well, like, yeah, Jay Yang. Yeah. That’s who I was

[00:42:25] Gannon: thinking of.

[00:42:25] Nathan: Yeah. He, he comments. He’s like, “Turns

[00:42:27] Gannon: out you can just do things.” I, I tagged him in the, yeah, I com- I tagged him in the c- in the caption. Um, but, like, for me, it’s like 20% of that is connection with- Mm-hmm … connecting with the audience, and then 80% is like what do I have to do in order to actually get people to pull the trigger?

[00:42:40] Mm-hmm. And the 80%, like- If, if I had like, you know, if, if these were all small boxes on this, like maybe there’s like, I don’t know, 3,000 boxes on here, like, like 2,400 of them are like, “This is sales content.” Like, I want people to hire me.

[00:42:56] Nathan: Right.

[00:42:56] Gannon: And the rest is like, how can I get people to understand that I’m a human being?

[00:43:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:00] Gannon: Um, like what’s my first pinned post on my Instagram profile?

[00:43:04] Nathan: The … What is it? What does it

[00:43:06] Gannon: have? Maybe you don’t, you don’t send me my Instagram content.

[00:43:08] Nathan: I haven’t seen

[00:43:08] Gannon: it in years. It’s the start here one, right? Okay. So like they understand who I am, like as a person. So like it’s not just like, “Hey, I have this service.

[00:43:15] You should buy it.” It’s like, “I built this thing, and here’s why I built it.” Mm. “Because I have this background experience with like coming from a small neighborhood, low income, you know, parents got foreclosed on.” It’s like, “I started this business because all of that happened.”

[00:43:28] Nathan: I mean, I should probably make one of those posts.

[00:43:29] Gannon: 100%, right? It’s part of your book. Right. Like it’s part, it’s like part of your book. So it’s, it’s that, and then the s- second pinned post is me proposing to my girlfriend.

[00:43:37] Nathan: Mm.

[00:43:38] Gannon: And then I don’t have a third pinned post because I’m like those things are more important than the business, I feel like- Right

[00:43:42] obviously. Um, but I can’t tell you how many people have like just saved the, the start here post, and even like the picture of my fiance. I’m like, “This is weird.” “Why are there so many people saving it?” But I, I think it just- Because they’re

[00:43:53] Nathan: actually re- probably trying to remember you as a person.

[00:43:55] Gannon: Yeah, and like there’s so many comments in the start here, and it’s, it’s

[00:43:58] That was not my intention with doing it. But it has just like helped people connect with me at a deeper level because like at any point, 50 new people can pop up in like this automation space. But why would somebody come to me?

[00:44:12] Nathan: Right.

[00:44:12] Gannon: Right? So that’s the message I’m, I’m trying to get across, and you can do that with a 70/30, 80/20 split.

[00:44:19] Nathan: Now, you have 190,000 followers. Yeah. So if we look at this-

[00:44:23] Gannon: That number’s kind of crazy to say out loud.

[00:44:24] Nathan: We, we, if we look at this grid, you know, if that was your profile and we underline the follower count, right? There’s a lot.

[00:44:29] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:44:30] Nathan: But you don’t care about followers. Like that is not a metric-

[00:44:33] Gannon: They’re … …

[00:44:34] Nathan: that like truly matters,

[00:44:36] Gannon: but- I talked about this.

[00:44:36] Um, my friend Tom Noske posted about it, and then I saw Jay, uh, post about it. He was like- Jay Clouse? Yeah, Jay Clouse. So he’s like, “More and more creators are becoming unpaid spokespeople for AI tools.” And I’m like, “Why? Because the content just absolutely crushes.”

[00:44:51] Nathan: Mm.

[00:44:52] Gannon: Mm-hmm. And then I made a, a series, which I’m still doing, ’cause I think it’s just fun to make, but I made a series, uh, for Claude called Claude-mations.

[00:45:00] Mm. Just like what can I automate with Claude in terms of marketing? I mean, those videos do, like, at least 100,000 views every single one. Uh, I had one post get me, like, 20,000 new followers after just months of stagnation on my, on my page. And I’m like- Right … I wanna do more of this. Like, this is exhilarating.

[00:45:16] Like, I wake up and I’m like, “Oh my God, I have 5,000 new followers from last night.” And I’m just like, “I’m paying somebody to edit these videos. Those videos are not making me money right now.”

[00:45:26] Nathan: Mm.

[00:45:26] Gannon: They might in the future. Like, I’ve had, you know, businesses reach out and companies reach out being like, “Hey, can we do a, a sponsorship for, like, our new integration with Claude or something?”

[00:45:34] Like- Yeah … we have a new MCP. And I’m like, “Sure.” But-

[00:45:37] Nathan: Yeah, I mean, you’ve done a-

[00:45:38] Gannon: It’s not what moves- … a Core MCP video … it’s not what moves the needle for the business, right? Yeah. It’s attracting the wrong people. Um, and then Tom made a post about it. He’s like, “My business, my, my content right now has never been worse, performing worse.”

[00:45:50] He’s got like 460,000 followers or something, and he gets, like, you know, a good chunk of, like, maybe like 10K views a video. But compared to his old stuff, he’s just not living up to, like, the content that he was posting. Right. But he’s like, “My business has never been doing better.” And I’m like- Mm … we are infatuated with the views and the likes on a post and the follower count.

[00:46:12] Nathan: Mm.

[00:46:12] Gannon: And I know people who have hundreds of thousands of followers who make no money. So we- And I

[00:46:17] Nathan: don’t wanna be like that … we have this idea, right, that, uh, views… Now I’m like, how do you spell views? Right? V-I-E-W? Yeah, V-I-E. Did I just get that wrong? Views equals, uh, revenue.

[00:46:30] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:46:31] Nathan: Revenue. I can’t spell anymore.

[00:46:34] And so what you’re saying, like, what you’re noticing over and over again is,

[00:46:37] Gannon: like- It’s not even close …

[00:46:38] Nathan: it’s not.

[00:46:38] Gannon: Not even close.

[00:46:39] Nathan: And so we, you know, we see people where views are way up and revenue is down. Yeah. And we see the inverse, where views are way down and revenue is way up.

[00:46:46] Gannon: I feel like, you know, for most people, when they have high views and they go broad- Mm-hmm

[00:46:50] that’s when the brand deals start getting big.

[00:46:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:53] Gannon: And I think they feel like they maybe deserve bigger brand deals because they have a bigger audience.

[00:46:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:58] Gannon: You’ve talked to Justin. That’s just not the case. Like, that’s- Right … not how this works.

[00:47:02] Nathan: What can you deliver for the brand?

[00:47:03] Gannon: Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:04] Nathan: Or you might get the first one, but if the-

[00:47:06] Gannon: Yeah

[00:47:06] Nathan: the follow-ups.

[00:47:07] Gannon: But, like, for, for me, it’s like I’m willing to go deeper- Mm … with an audience than I am to go, like, cast a wide net and just see who out of these people, you know, is potentially a good fit, especially when we charge so much money for our setups.

[00:47:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:22] Gannon: It’s like the person, like somebody wanting to learn how to set up a Claude skill is not gonna spend 10 grand with me to build their ManyChat- Right

[00:47:30] automations, right? But somebody who is like, “Oh, there’s a new ManyChat pricing update,” and this person knows what they’re talking about, or they did this for this other creator-

[00:47:38] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:47:39] Gannon: and that video might have 8,000 views, but it’s made me, like, 30 grand. Right. Right? So it’s like there’s a trade-off here, and I think everybody’s chasing views, and they think by chasing views it leads to revenue, and it’s, it’s never the case.

[00:47:55] So what’s, what leads to revenue? Is it

[00:47:57] Nathan: relevance? Like, what is the thing that has the most direct tie to revenue? I

[00:48:00] Gannon: think it’s just, like, how deep you go on a topic and how you share, how you think about solving problems. Like, if you can prove that you have solved a problem that somebody has, and you tell them exactly how you did it- I’d say at least in the service-based business, like those people don’t wanna pay to learn.

[00:48:18] They wanna pay for somebody to do it for them. So that’s what works for us. Like we… I’ll make a video about like, this is what I would do if I were this person who’s running- Yeah … Money Chat, and then that video might like, it might you know, you see 180,000 views, 500,000 views, five million views on the video.

[00:48:34] Like, oh, those videos probably crush. He’s probably living lavish right now. I’m like, I made no money from those. Right. And then there’s the video with 3,000 views where it’s like, you know, that paid for my wedding. Mm. So it’s like, you know, I’m trying to go deeper, share how I solve problems, and show up in front of the right audience.

[00:48:51] And then hopefully, when typically what happens is like that person will message me or interact with the post. Mm. Or somebody like that person will, will interact with the post.

[00:48:59] Nathan: Okay, so this is the example of like being very, very upfront

[00:49:03] Gannon: about what you offer, the value you provide.

[00:49:05] Nathan: I feel like a lot of creators are like, they don’t wanna be salesy- They’re so

[00:49:08] Gannon: secretive

[00:49:09] Nathan: to a fault

[00:49:09] and so they’re like, “And so I’m gonna hide the value that I provide to the world,” and all this.

[00:49:12] Gannon: The… I, I like that you bring this up because like what, what’s happening here, it’s like, it’s all in private. Mm. Like Samir calls this like your private marketing world for your audience. Mm. So like what Colin and Samir do with like creator support, everything happens privately.

[00:49:26] So you don’t know that they actually sell anything until you see it in a creator support video, or you go through a lead magnet and you go like- Mm … oh wow, there’s like so many different things that I can do here. But they’re never like, “Hey, you should buy, you know, this, this $799 brand deal blueprint.”

[00:49:41] Nathan: Right.

[00:49:42] Gannon: Because it’s just like, you know, they, I- they don’t wanna come off as salesy, but I actually think it’s smart because nobody’s just gonna buy that from like, you know. Right. Maybe they have pull, so like they probably will get people to buy

[00:49:51] Nathan: it. That, as a random aside- … uh, I met up with Samir when I was in Dubai.

[00:49:56] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:49:56] Nathan: We were talking about him switching over to Kit and all that, and he’s like, “Yeah, like I’d love to do that.” Uh, which is awesome. And then he’s like, “Let me connect with the team to

[00:50:03] Gannon: make that happen.” He connects the team and it’s you. It’s just me. I’m the team. And I was like, oh, they have a- No, I get it

[00:50:07] they have an awesome team. Like Cheyenne, um, who runs a lot of the like, basically the full funnel. Yeah. Like she’s brilliant, she’s awesome. Um, I take very little credit for like what they do. Yeah, all the

[00:50:17] Nathan: email stuff.

[00:50:17] Gannon: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:18] Nathan: Uh, but it’s fun to see, like you, you’re behind the scenes for a lot of these creators.

[00:50:21] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:50:22] Nathan: And so what you’re doing is you’re putting out a video where you’re saying, here is how I would break it down. Like, I studied this in detail, right? Yeah. We’ve got the stakes, we’ve got… But here’s what I noticed there to do better. I’m watching that video, and then either I’m like, oh, I’m like a Colin and Samir or someone else, or I am them.

[00:50:43] Yeah. And so that results directly in clients, is that right? Yeah. They’ve been a client since I posted that video. The video has like 7,000

[00:50:50] Gannon: views. It’s crazy.

[00:50:51] Nathan: That’s a lot of revenue on a… Like your revenue per view ratio on that- I mean … is probably very good.

[00:50:57] Gannon: It’s more than a dollar a view. Like by a large sum.

[00:51:00] Yeah, it’s probably like $3 a view.

[00:51:02] Nathan: Yeah. And so you

[00:51:03] Gannon: think… Yeah. So like- I mean, for me, like, uh, I don’t know if this is, like, helpful for people, but, like, when I’m up in front of a whiteboard just, like, by myself breaking these things down, just like my alter ego. It’s like I turn into a different person, like, from when I’m outside.

[00:51:19] And I can’t do it in front of anybody else. Like, even- Mm-hmm … my fiance, I’m like, “If you’re gonna be home when I’m recording a video, you need to be outside on the balcony listening to your book, ’cause I don’t want you to hear this.” Um, but the thing about those videos, it’s like it all starts the same way.

[00:51:33] Like, I started the Alex Hormozi video with, like, you know, “Alex Hormozi just texted me,” and it’s a automated message from, like, his book launch.

[00:51:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:41] Gannon: But I realized he has three million followers and doesn’t use ManyChat, therefore, I’m gonna spend the next 96 hours of my life building him a strategy.

[00:51:49] Right. And that’s it. It’s like Colin and Samir are some of the biggest creators in the creator economy, but they’re not running ManyChat. Here’s what I would do if I were- Mm … running their ManyChat automations. And then I just break down, like, what products they sell, how they sell it, and then, like, how ManyChat plugs into it, and those videos do really well.

[00:52:04] One of them got like 800,000 views.

[00:52:07] Nathan: So I mean, that’s the thing, right? We’re, we’re talking about these videos have a very small number of views and result in a lot of revenue for your agency. Yeah. But then also some of them, they do a ton of views and get you a bunch of followers as well.

[00:52:17] Gannon: It’s, it’s … Like, the, the amount of, like, the people who I’ve, like, met on calls from just videos- Yeah

[00:52:22] that I’ve posted, like Nir, who wrote Beyond Be- Belief.

[00:52:25] Nathan: Yeah. He’s a guest on the

[00:52:26] Gannon: podcast. He saw me f- from, like, the video that I did for this woman, Emily On The Brain. He’s like, “You know, I, I, I’m releasing this book and I’m … it’s not woo woo. Like, I feel like you can help me, you know, with this wait list and, like, promote the book launch.”

[00:52:37] I’m like, “I’ve been reading your content for years.” Like, why am I on a call with you right now? Yeah. This is so weird. Um, who else? Like, uh, Nick DiGiovanni’s- Oh, yeah … DiGiovanni’s team. Um- Yeah,

[00:52:48] Nathan: Nick’s a, a Kit customer as well. I’m just

[00:52:50] Gannon: like, “Dude, like, what is happening?” I’m just, like, posting these videos, like, three minutes of me talking in front of a whiteboard, and it’s just like-

[00:52:55] Nathan: As a quick aside, I feel like Kit has gotten a lot of very impressive customers over the years.

[00:53:00] My kids are like, “Yeah, whatever. Whatever.” Wait, you have Chef Nick as a customer? And that’s the one- That’s so funny … that gets you street cred. Yeah, he’s doing the FIFA World Cup stuff right now. It’s awesome. Oh, yeah. This is incredible. I’m gonna change a bunch of things about what I’m doing. And I love seeing all the behind the scenes and everything else, but thank you for the master class.

[00:53:15] Yeah, of

[00:53:15] Gannon: course.

[00:53:16] Nathan: There’s one more thing I wanna ask you.

[00:53:17] Gannon: Sure.

[00:53:18] Nathan: But it’s probably a conversation we should sit, sit down for.

[00:53:20] Gannon: Sure. Sounds good.

[00:53:22] Nathan: You have completely transformed your life in the last 12 months, and I wanna know, first contrast, what was life like before? What is it like now?

[00:53:30] Gannon: And then let’s dive into it.

[00:53:31] Like, what did you do? Yeah, I mean, I’ve been, I’ve been full-time as a creator since January 2024. Okay. Um, and I, like, did the whole hustle thing where I’m like, if I can create and teach something, I’m gonna turn it into a product and just sell it and see who buys it. Mm-hmm. And, like, that did okay. Um, it got to a point where I was like, “I’m proposing to my girlfriend.

[00:53:52] We live with her mom. We’ve been here for seven years. I am full-time working for myself. She’s a nurse. At some point, we gotta get the ball rolling you know, and move out and figure out how we’re gonna start our lives.” Um, and that required me to, like, really think seriously about how this is not just like every month we start from zero.

[00:54:11] How do we create, like, a recurring revenue stream? Yeah. Um, and I had this idea of creating, like, an Instagram, like, community/coaching membership.

[00:54:23] Nathan: It’s a pretty typical creator

[00:54:24] Gannon: product. Of course. Of course. So I, I text my friend, uh, Nana, um, who is hosting an event in New York. This is- August of last year, and her husband is, um, on Instagram.

[00:54:41] His name’s, uh, Mark Brazil. He, uh, he has the Open Residency podcast. Okay. And he ha- he started a company. Like, you know, um, Gary V invested in it, so I’m like, super smart business guy. I’m like, “I need to ask this guy questions of, like, what I should do.” So I text Nana. I’m like, “Hey, I see you’re hosting this event, and Mark is going.

[00:54:58] Can I go to the event?” And she’s like, “Well, it’s a, uh, it’s a female only event.” So I’m like, “I can’t go?” And she’s like, “No, I’d love to have you here so, like, you can ask questions to Mark at the round table.” And I’m like, “Perfect.” I get to finally meet Mark after knowing you for years, and I’m like, I’m gonna just put together this idea of, like, what I have.

[00:55:16] So I’m like, “Mark, here’s the context. I am just engaged. I need to figure out how to make recurring revenue. Here’s 14 paragraphs of ideas.” And I went last at the round table. I didn’t make it four sentences in, and I mentioned, like, “I wanna start this Instagram membership. I know how I’m gonna price it. I know how I’m gonna, you know, where to host it.”

[00:55:37] And he’s like, “You’re an idiot.” Like, “You’re so dumb.” I’m like, “What do you mean? Like, I thought this was a good idea.” So the context of that is that f- five or six months prior to that, I had a conversation with Nana, Friday night, on Zoom, two hours. You know, and when your wife is on Zoom with somebody for two hours on a Friday night, of course you’re gonna know what’s going on.

[00:55:59] So he’s, he had, he knew what I built for, for Nana. So she was running automations, um, on ManyChat and wanted to grow her kit newsletter. So we built out this, like, spider web of automations, and it crushed.

[00:56:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:12] Gannon: And he obviously knew that because he’s like, “Why are you talking to this guy on Zoom on a Friday night?”

[00:56:17] Nana, yeah. Um, and he’s like, “You know, you, you should just do that.” And I had no idea what that meant, ’cause I, I had never charged anybody for that.

[00:56:25] Nathan: Mm.

[00:56:26] Gannon: And I didn’t know how to make, like, automations in ManyChat, like, quote-unquote, “sexy”. It’s like up to that point, I had been, like, storytelling, and the videos were crushed, and I was doing all right with brand deals.

[00:56:35] I had grown my account up to that point to, like, 100 and, like, 20,000 followers, and I’m like, “There has to be somewhere I can, like, make this work.” Mm. Like, I don’t know if I’m gonna talk about ManyChat. And I left that event, and I was like, “Well, I guess I’m gonna be at my mother-in-law’s house for the next seven years.”

[00:56:52] And, uh, this idea popped in my head, and I’m like, “Wait a second. What if I just, you know, talked about what I would do if I ran somebody’s ManyChat?” Like, s- uh, this is what I did for Nana for two hours- Mm … on Zoom, but I’m like, “I have to condense this for three minutes, to, to three minutes.” And my fiance is at a My Chemical Romance concert at MetLife Stadium.

[00:57:12] I’m driving home on the New Jersey Turnpike at 11:30 at night, and I text her. I’m like, “I have this idea for a video. I’m not going to sleep until the video’s on Instagram.” I get home at 12:00- The video is Alex Hormozi texts me, and-

[00:57:27] Nathan: Which is a great hook. It’s a great hook. And

[00:57:29] Gannon: then it’s an even better

[00:57:29] Nathan: pa- ‘Cause it has credibility to it, and then it has the but that you were talking about.

[00:57:34] Yeah. Where it’s me like, “But he didn’t.” Yeah. Right? And so you’re like, “Wait, who’s it… You’re cool enough. You came across my feed. You’re cool enough that Alex Hormozi is texting you.” Yeah. “Oh, he’s not texting me.” You know? I’m like-

[00:57:45] Gannon: But you wanna stick around to be like, “What is this guy talking about?” Yeah. Oh, 100%.

[00:57:48] Why is he in front of a giant whiteboard, the digital whiteboard, talking about, like, this funnel? Um, so that video was three minutes on the dot, and it was, like, five before I cut it. Yeah. And I’m like, “What do I cut to get this out to three minutes?” And, uh, it was 12:30 when I posted it, so I didn’t do any edits besides just, like, throwing captions on and making it-

[00:58:05] Nathan: Okay,

[00:58:05] Gannon: wow.

[00:58:06] But it’s also very hard to put a horizontal screen in a vertical layout. Yeah. Um, and I posted that video at 12:30. My fiancée got home, and, uh, I actually beat her to bed, uh, which is good, ’cause that never happens when I’m recording videos. You did this video pretty, pretty quickly. Yeah, it was very quick.

[00:58:20] And I f- I woke up the next morning, the video had 34,000 views. And I was like, “This is… Like, maybe Mark was right. Maybe I am an idiot.” Yeah. “Maybe I should just continue talking about this.” And then I posted a, a video for Ali Abdaal that did 35, 36,000 views. I did, uh, Caleb Browston- Mm-hmm … who was on Alex Hormozi’s team.

[00:58:42] That video did, like, 160,000 views. I did Emma on the Brain. That got, like, s- 800,000 views. Um, I did Colin and Samir. That did, like, 8,000 views, but they commented on the post. Yeah. And I was like, “All right. Wait, wait, wait. Something, something’s going on here.” And- I realized that, you know, the, the way that I, I kind of talk about this is, like, the, the first question that I was asked when I applied for my first big boy job at this digital marketing company was, like, the everyday engineer question.

[00:59:10] Like, how many ping pong balls are, can fit in a bus? How many golf balls are there in Florida? Mm-hmm. And I’m like, “I actually … Why are you asking me this question?” Right. I was like, “Why? What do you mean?” I was fortunate enough to have somebody who worked at the company ask me that question, um, as a test interview.

[00:59:25] And I was like… She, she asked me how many slices of pizza are consumed in the US every year, and I’m like, “What do you mean?” Like, I’m, I don’t know. And what were they trying to get at? I’m just a boy. I don’t know, actually. Yeah. Um, but I got to an answer, like, in 30 seconds, and-

[00:59:39] Nathan: They just wanted to see how you think.

[00:59:41] Gannon: They wanted to see how you think, right? Um, but I actually think, like, it’s, it’s a little bit deeper than that. It’s like, how, for what I do now, right? Like, the, the answer to that question is there’s no right or wrong answer. Unless it’s like the ping pong, you could do math to get to that answer. But, like, for how many slices of pizza are you…

[00:59:57] Like, nobody knows. So why are we asking these questions? And I realized that, you know, it’s, it’s, th- those companies wanna see how you think, but if you take it a step further, it’s they wanna see how willing you are to be wrong in public.

[01:00:12] Nathan: Oh, okay.

[01:00:12] Gannon: Because there’s no right answer to that question, and I realized that’s what I was doing with the videos that I was making.

[01:00:18] Nathan: Mm.

[01:00:19] Gannon: I was like, oh, people can see how I think. There’s no right or wrong answer. You can get to the answer a million different ways, but- People wanna learn more about your experience and, like, how you think about solving these problems, and watch you do it live, and show people how, like, you know, I guess, courageous you are to actually be willing to be wrong in public.

[01:00:40] And the more I did that, the more I realized, like, this is why people get hired for big jobs. They arrive at wrong answers very quickly, or they’re not r- they’re not scared to show that they- Right … could potentially be wrong. And when you do videos like that, there’s a good chance you’re gonna be wrong sometimes.

[01:00:59] Like, you don’t have the full context of somebody’s business, but you can put it in a sequence that makes sense for other people watching. And in the event that you’re right for the person you made the video about- The path is huge … they’re, they’re a client. Yeah. Like, they’re a client. So, like, there’s very little downside.

[01:01:15] But what’s changed my life significantly in the past 12 months is just doing that over and over again, like answering questions that have no right answer, and just showing people how I think about solving problems- Mm-hmm … but doing it publicly. And it’s kind of like, you know, when you, when you see something that you want, or you have this thing, like for you, it might be, like, a new plane, right?

[01:01:37] Like, you have this idea for a new plane that you want, and you’re like, you might go to an airport, and you’re looking out for, like, that plane model that you want. It’s like, you start seeing it everywhere. It’s like- Mm-hmm … I haven’t seen this. Like, why am I now seeing it everywhere? It’s because you started doing it yourself, or you started thinking about it.

[01:01:50] And as I started posting more and more of those videos, I saw other people doing it. When I tell people this story, they’re like, “Of course, you have 192,000 followers. Like, of course- Right … it works for you,” right? And I’m like, “Mark called me an idiot. I’m about to call you an idiot.” “Because I can give you five people right now who have less than 10,000 followers who are doing unbelievable things- Mm

[01:02:10] because they did the same thing.” So- ‘

[01:02:12] Nathan: Cause they’re willing to be wrong in public …

[01:02:13] Gannon: willing to be wrong in public. Yes, like this, this one, um, woman, uh, Ceci, she made a A carousel of what she would do for if sh- if chess.com hired her for a merch

[01:02:29] Nathan: line That’s a, that’s not getting the attention of a random creator who’s

[01:02:31] Gannon: definitely

[01:02:31] Nathan: on Instagram.

[01:02:32] No. That’s like a, a big brand.

[01:02:34] Gannon: Post-it Notes commented, Lego commented, chess.com commented. She had less than 10,000 followers, and I, I’m like, “Oh, this is amazing.” I, I followed her, I DM’d her, and I was like, “Can I put this into Keynote?” Mm-hmm. ‘Cause I saw them comment. She’s like, “Yeah, of course.” And then a few weeks later she messages me.

[01:02:51] She’s like, “By the way, I wanted to follow up. I’m doing the thing with chess.com.” I’m like, “Really?” ‘Cause they said, “Yes,

[01:02:56] Nathan: please. We’ll take

[01:02:57] Gannon: what-” Yeah. “We’ll take that.” And then I had somebody, um, I was teaching a Many, ManyChat bootcamp maybe eight months ago, and I was at the beginning stages of, like, launching this agency, and I made, like, a, an aside comment to my g- my students, and I was like, “I hate running an agency.

[01:03:15] Like, I just hate doing this work, and also trying to manage this side of my life- Mm-hmm … and also trying to move out, and just getting engaged, and, like, trying to manage all this.” And one of the students who was, like, probably weeks five of six, who was, like, far ahead in, in his homework- Yeah … absolutely crushing it, he’s like, “Hey, you made this comment three weeks ago.

[01:03:33] I spent the last three weeks trying to put together what I would do if I ran this agency for you.” He’s been a partner at the company ever since he posted the video. ‘

[01:03:41] Nathan: Cause he steps up and says- Right?

[01:03:42] Gannon: Yeah. Yeah. He’s like, you know, some of the things I, you know, I might not necessarily agree with in his proposal, but he was- The demographics

[01:03:49] willing to do that, you know, publicly or not. Like, he was willing to be wrong.

[01:03:55] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:56] Gannon: So, and those people like, you know, f- the types of people who think they’re gonna be able to, like, change their life by doing this are the ones who just secretly DM you telling you that they can solve your problems, but they never do.

[01:04:09] Right. Like, it just goes to spam. So if there’s one thing I encourage anybody to do is just be willing to put yourself out there. It’s how I ended up on your plane.

[01:04:20] Nathan: Right.

[01:04:20] Gannon: Right?

[01:04:21] Nathan: I mean, who posts bucket list

[01:04:24] Gannon: things to go fly a plane? Yeah, it’s just like, it’s very strange. And that’ll take you to places where you, like, never would have imagined.

[01:04:30] Mm-hmm. Um, it’s true for me, and it’s, it’s true for people who don’t have… You know, I have a small following compared to like everybody else. Like, you can spend all day comparing yourself to other people, but it’s not because I have 192,000 followers, it’s because I just went out and did the thing. Mm-hmm.

[01:04:46] And most people don’t. And, you know, you compare my life to where it was 12 months ago, it’s, uh, it’s very different.

[01:04:52] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:04:53] Gannon: So yeah.

[01:04:54] Nathan: That’s amazing. What a note to end on.

[01:04:55] Gannon: That’s right. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank

[01:04:57] Nathan: you for

[01:04:57] Gannon: teaching the- Of course …

[01:04:58] Nathan: the masterclass. Uh, if people wanna go follow you on the internet, where should they

[01:05:02] Gannon: go?

[01:05:02] Yeah, it’s my first name.last name, gannon.meier on Instagram. It’s my first name, last name, no period on YouTube. And then LinkedIn, uh, you probably don’t know many Gannons, so just search my name- … and you’ll find me somewhere. It’s just a black and white photo, so. I like it. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it, man.

[01:05:18] Thank you.

[01:05:19] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also, just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:05:34] listening.