The $10 Offer That Made $750,000

[00:00:00] Shawn: This is what product market fit feels like. We couldn’t sell it fast enough.

[00:00:03] Nathan: Shawn Blanc has run every business model there is: affiliate income, sponsorships, an e-book, a flagship course, memberships, and even in-person retreats.

[00:00:10] Shawn: What if we just do it as one day? The whole focus course in one day. We did it for, like, 10 bucks.

[00:00:14] We made an insane amount of money.

[00:00:15] Nathan: How much money did it make?

[00:00:16] Shawn: $750,000.

[00:00:19] Nathan: What are the other lessons that you take away from

[00:00:21] Shawn: that? Don’t be romantic about how you make your money.

[00:00:23] Nathan: Over the past 15 years, he’s reinvented himself in so many ways. He’s actually pivoted from the course that built his business to a new venture that he talks about in this episode.

[00:00:32] Shawn: This actually ends up leading to the biggest breakthrough for the business that I’ve had in 15 years. So it’s doing, like, about 100 grand for the year, and then I just hit 100 grand in a week. All of that came from the email list. It’s a crazy transformation.

[00:00:42] Nathan: When he examined the business to find what was broken, he came back to a much more difficult question: What if the thing limiting his business was actually him?

[00:00:49] Shawn: I call it the burden of opportunity, where these are a lot of opportunities, but if you say yes to all of them, none of them will reach their potential.

[00:00:55] Nathan: What would you say to an entrepreneur who has a lot of good things going on but can’t

[00:00:59] Shawn: seem to focus? When you have all those opportunities, you have to-

[00:01:02] Nathan: I like that.

[00:01:02] You’ll definitely wanna stick around for

[00:01:04] Shawn: this episode. You can get the same amount of work done in less time just by

[00:01:13] Nathan: Sean, welcome to the show.

[00:01:14] Shawn: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

[00:01:16] Nathan: So we’ve known each other for a long time.

[00:01:17] Shawn: Yes.

[00:01:17] Nathan: You’ve been creating content on the internet for a long time- Yes … just like I have. I feel like we’ve kind of grown up together as our businesses and, like, learned from each other and all of that.

[00:01:25] The thing that I wanna talk about most today is reinvention.

[00:01:28] Shawn: Mm-hmm. ‘

[00:01:28] Nathan: Cause to stay relevant as a creator- Yeah … for a long time, you have to reinvent yourself. What’s your approach been to reinventing yourself? Oh, my. And, and are you intentional about it, or is it, has it all been accidental?

[00:01:38] Shawn: I think on the business side, what I have found after 15 years, which I think you know about this as well, is there is…

[00:01:46] for one, there’s never a silver bullet. Mm-hmm. I’m always like, “Oh, this will be the launch,” or, “This will be the product,” or, “This will be the offer,” or, “This will be the new channel that will finally, like, unlock my business.”

[00:01:56] Nathan: Right.

[00:01:57] Shawn: And it never exists. Like, it’s never there.

[00:02:00] Nathan: I have never found it.

[00:02:01] Shawn: Right.

[00:02:02] Nathan: I have looked for a very long time, and I, and I keep thinking, “Oh, this is the thing.”

[00:02:07] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:07] Nathan: For us, it would be our, like, a recent one would be our Creator Network feature-

[00:02:11] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:02:12] Nathan: which has made a big impact, and people rave about it. But, like, it’s been a marginal improvement on the success of the business- Yeah … even though it, you know, it’ll drive, like, 30 or 40% growth for individual creators, and like, this is the best thing ever.

[00:02:24] And it’s like, okay. But it hasn’t, you know- Mm-hmm … it was the, the breakthrough that I was expecting.

[00:02:29] Shawn: Right.

[00:02:29] Nathan: Uh, and it didn’t fully come. Um, and I,

[00:02:32] Shawn: I- And it’s like these, these incremental things.

[00:02:34] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:34] Shawn: Right? So every time I think this is gonna be the big thing, it turns out to be, well, it’s just one more step forward.

[00:02:39] Right. So I think reinvention of the business is always thinking, what do I need next? Or, what does the business need next? Or, what do my customers need next to continue to stay relevant, to continue to stay alive, to continue to have cash flow, to continue for me to, like, stay interested in the business?

[00:02:57] So it always feels like whatever’s working right now, I wanna really enjoy it. Mm-hmm. But know that in probably, like, three to five years, it will not be working anymore, and if I don’t have the next thing lined up- Mm-hmm … for what’s going to work then after that, then, then you’re gonna be in trouble. Right.

[00:03:14] And so that’s, when I think of, like, reinvention for the business, it’s always like- Do what’s working now and don’t sabotage that, but also I’ve gotta be thinking about what’s the next thing or what’s the next lever that I need to pull or whatever, so that as this begins to taper down, something new can kind of begin to taper up.

[00:03:29] So

[00:03:29] Nathan: if we were to go through, like, maybe four cycles of the business.

[00:03:34] Shawn: Sure.

[00:03:34] Nathan: When we, when we first met, I think you were doing content about the whole Apple and Mac industry. And so it was apps and tools- Right … and all that. Is that-

[00:03:45] Shawn: Yeah … that accurate? I s- I started… Yeah, so I started in 2011 as, like, an Apple blogger.

[00:03:50] Mm. So I was like tech nerd stuff, and I would review, like, Apple apps. Um, like the iPhone was young at that time.

[00:03:58] Nathan: And that was the world that I was in as well.

[00:03:59] Shawn: Yeah, I think that’s how we even got connected was, like, ’cause you were doing app design. Yep. And so you were like an Apple nerd. I had

[00:04:04] Nathan: a few- And, yeah

[00:04:05] a, a few of my own apps and- Right … then wrote a book about it, and so- Yeah … we’re all in the same world.

[00:04:11] Shawn: So yeah, I started as Apple tech blogger reviewer, um, and was in that space for quite a while, and then I think I saw your stuff with your… It was, like, your app design, your handbook I think- Yep … was like the first whatever product that you came out with.

[00:04:26] Yeah. And saw how that, like, “Hey, I took something that I learned and then I sold it on the internet, and I made a, a lot of money from selling it on the internet.” Yeah.

[00:04:35] Nathan: It made 20 grand in a week.

[00:04:37] Shawn: Which is amazing, right? And-

[00:04:39] Nathan: Do you remember from that, like, the first iteration when it was mostly affiliates or advertising- Yeah

[00:04:44] what the revenue was? Like, in 2011, 2012, like, the,

[00:04:47] Shawn: that- For me?

[00:04:47] Nathan: Yeah, was

[00:04:48] Shawn: that- Yeah. I’d been doing it on the side for a couple years- Okay … like, just, like, as a hobby.

[00:04:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:53] Shawn: And so I was doing only, like, affiliate stuff, like on Amazon, and then some sponsorships, like, and it was just a blog.

[00:05:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:00] Shawn: Like, I didn’t have a newsletter, I didn’t have a podcast.

[00:05:02] This was just blogging. And, like,

[00:05:03] Nathan: Daring Fireball would be, like, the legend in the space, right?

[00:05:05] Shawn: Yeah, like John Gruber was- Yeah … for sure, like, um, you know, huge inspiration- Mm-hmm … uh, et cetera, like looked up to him quite a bit. So- That, those first couple years, um, when I started, I went full-time in 2011, and I was like, “I’m gonna do a podcast and you guys can sp- support me for $3 a month.”

[00:05:24] Yeah. And it was like a Patreon style, but Patreon didn’t exist at the time. Right. And so you had to send me a PayPal, like $3 on PayPal, and then I would manually email you the link to my private podcast feed, ’cause you couldn’t do authenticated password pod- Right … so it was, like, so janky. But I was able, for that plus a couple other things, I was, like, 50 grand a year, maybe- Okay

[00:05:46] 55 a year- Yeah … for that first year. But that was, that actually replaced my previous salary, ’cause I was working for a church before that. Oh, yeah. And so I was like, “Hey, oh, this is working.”

[00:05:54] Nathan: My last salary was 63,000 a year. Yeah. So, you know, as an amount of money, we were like- It works … ”

[00:05:59] Shawn: Okay, this is amazing.” I was like, “Oh, I- it worked.

[00:06:00] I can do this. Okay.” And so then, um, through sponsorship stuff, like, it slowly began to grow and I, I think it took, like, about a year till I got to closer to, like, 100 grand a year. Mm-hmm. Um, I did my first product launch, kind of followed your path, like your framework, um, along with, like, Jeff Walker’s stuff.

[00:06:17] Nathan: Oh, yeah.

[00:06:18] Shawn: And it was, like, an e-book. And then that was- What was the

[00:06:21] Nathan: book?

[00:06:21] Shawn: It was called Delight Is In The Details.

[00:06:23] Nathan: Okay.

[00:06:23] Shawn: And it was just about, like, when you sweat the details, it’s more enjoyable for you as a creator, but then also, like, your, uh, your audience delights in the details when you also- Yeah … pay attention to them.

[00:06:34] So that was my first product launch, and that did really well, but I didn’t have an email list.

[00:06:39] Nathan: Mm.

[00:06:39] Shawn: And so I just literally, like, posted about it on my blog, and I think I made, like, five or six grand in a week, which is still, like, awesome, and then that turned into s- then residual revenue as people would buy it over time.

[00:06:48] And so I was like, “Oh, you can make more money by selling direct products to your audience.” So then I was like, “I gotta try this email thing. Like, Nathan keeps talking about- Yeah … this email thing.” So I built, like, a pre-launch list on MailChimp. Sorry.

[00:07:01] Nathan: Uh, I mean, I

[00:07:01] Shawn: built my- Kit didn’t exist at the time, so. I built my pre-launch

[00:07:03] Nathan: list on

[00:07:03] Shawn: MailChimp as well.

[00:07:04] Exactly. We, we were all using MailChimp. And then I relaunched the book a year later, and instead of doing, like, six grand, I think I did, like, 30 grand.

[00:07:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:12] Shawn: And all of that came from the email list. And I was like, “Oh, why, why did I just now figure this out?” And so- Well, when- Yeah …

[00:07:19] Nathan: like, you get to this moment where you realize, like, “Wait, I just made 50% of my previous year’s salary,” or- Mm-hmm

[00:07:23] like, the last job that I had. Yeah. Yeah. 50% of that salary in a week- In a week … or a month or, you know, and, and you’re just like, “I can’t do this every single month.” Mm-hmm. Right? I can’t do the same big launch all the time. But, like- Man, there’s a whole new world open to me, and i- it’s just, it’s a crazy transformation

[00:07:39] Shawn: It really is.

[00:07:39] And it’s fun because then I felt like I could build things. Mm-hmm. I could go into, like, a monk mode and design a product or build a product- Mm-hmm … and then, uh, and then come out and sell it, and then not only get the launch revenue from that, but then all the ongoing residual, like, over time. And, um, and it took me off this hamster wheel of having to keep my traffic up for sponsorship posts- Right

[00:08:01] having to link to certain things for the affiliate revenue. So stepping out of the Apple tech space, um, primarily for sponsorships and affiliates, and then moving more into, like, direct products directly for my customers- Yep … um, was kind of that next phase of, like, reinvention for the business. Um, and I remember, like, personally feeling a ton of, uh, like, imposter syndrome or, like, this fear of rejection- Yeah

[00:08:27] of my future customers being mad at me, which we can get into this later. Okay. This has been a huge, like, theme for me, was I was like, “They are going to buy this e-book for $9 and they are going to, like, come burn down my door and demand their money, and they’re gonna be mad. Like, uh, like, people are going to be so mad at me.”

[00:08:47] I don’t know, like, there was stuff going on, which we can get into this later. Yep. And so having to push through that fear of, like, the potential rejection or the fe- the negative feedback- Mm-hmm … or whatever it may be, and just be comfortable with putting my stuff out there and actually selling it.

[00:09:00] Nathan: What helps to get past that?

[00:09:01] Because I think a lot of people have that in the early days of, like, “Who am I to do this?” Yeah. Or, “Someone else would do, do it better,” or, you know, any of those things. Even I’ve talked to people- who are totally fine building it in front of strangers- Mm-hmm … but would not tell their family.

[00:09:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:09:14] Nathan: Uh- So real

[00:09:16] there’s this, this little unknown author named James Clear, who got to, I think, 100,000 subscribers on his newsletter-

[00:09:23] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:09:24] Nathan: before he told his family that he was writing a newsletter.

[00:09:26] Shawn: Oh, my, that’s

[00:09:26] Nathan: hilarious. Like,

[00:09:29] Shawn: you know? Why is it… Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s… ‘Cause it’s a different version of us.

[00:09:32] Nathan: He

[00:09:32] Shawn: would

[00:09:32] Nathan: not post to his personal- Yeah

[00:09:32] Facebook page at all- Yeah … until it got to, like, a crazy amount of traction. Yeah. He was like, “Okay, now I guess this is good enough that I’m not embarrassed by it.”

[00:09:38] Shawn: That’s crazy. That’s hilarious. I think for me, the big thing was I just, I did it scared.

[00:09:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:44] Shawn: And I was afraid that things would go wrong, and I just did it anyways.

[00:09:47] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:47] Shawn: And also, I would, like, in the early days, I would send, like, an early draft of the book or, like, a beta access to the course to people that I liked and trusted, and I would ask for honest feedback. And then they would say, “Oh, this is good,” or, “I like this,” or whatever. And so then I would, like, trust their feedback and like they’re, they’re being honest with me.

[00:10:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:06] Shawn: I still feel scared, but, you know, the only red flags are the ones that I feel, like, my, my fear, and I’m gonna- Right … do it afraid anyways.

[00:10:13] Nathan: Yeah. I like that. Okay, so then when did the Focus course come in?

[00:10:17] Shawn: That came in in 2016. No, 2015. Yeah. Sorry. 2015, and that was, like, my first big, like, a flagship course.

[00:10:27] Yeah. And I had… Because I was doing this Patreon podcast thing, people gave me $3 a month. How much, how

[00:10:31] Nathan: much money did you make off the,

[00:10:33] Shawn: like-

[00:10:34] Nathan: So- What did the MR get to on-

[00:10:35] Shawn: Yeah … the

[00:10:35] Nathan: $3 podcast? It got to, like, 40 grand a year. So- Okay … I guess, yeah,

[00:10:39] Shawn: so like 35- That’s pretty good … 35 to 4,000 a month.

[00:10:41] Nathan: That’s, that’s legit.

[00:10:42] Shawn: Yeah. I had, yeah, I had, like, 800 people giving me, you know, three… And then I, I raised the rate to $4 a month.

[00:10:48] Nathan: Ooh, big moves.

[00:10:48] Shawn: And, yeah. And then, yeah, good times.

[00:10:51] Nathan: I mean, that’s almost a 50% increase, so.

[00:10:53] Shawn: It’s true. It- it’s true, like, from three to four. And so I o- I did a series on that podcast around productivity and some of the- Mm

[00:11:00] stuff that I had personally learned on values and time management, stuff like that. And I got more listener feedback during that series on the productivity stuff than all the other shows, ’cause it, the show is called Sean Today. Yeah. And it was a daily episode. So I did, I think I did, like, 1,000 episodes over the course of a few years.

[00:11:17] And so then, like, I did this s- I would have to find, like… When you’re doing a, a daily show, like, you gotta just find stuff to talk about. So I’ll just, “I’ll do a whole series on all my productivity stuff.” Mm-hmm. And then that turned into, like, people loved it and wanted to know more, and so I’m like, “Oh, I get it.

[00:11:30] I could turn this into an e-book.” And then I’m like, “Oh,” I saw people doing these online courses where they were charging, like, 2, 3, $400 for the course. Right.

[00:11:38] Nathan: And that seemed very expensive at the time.

[00:11:39] Shawn: Oh, my gosh, so much compared to the $9

[00:11:42] Nathan: e-book. Oh, yeah.

[00:11:42] Shawn: And, uh, so I was like, “Oh, I could do, instead of it as a book, I could do Like, videos- Mm-hmm

[00:11:48] and do it as a course, and I could charge way more.

[00:11:50] Nathan: Also, I gotta say- Yeah … your stuff always looked so good. Oh, thank you. Maybe it’s, like, the, you know, always caring about the details.

[00:11:55] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:56] Nathan: But I remember your videos about the course, and shot on a DSLR.

[00:12:01] Shawn: Right.

[00:12:02] Nathan: Right? Like, there’s a good setup there. You had depth of field behind you- Mm-hmm

[00:12:05] and then, you know, like, a, a light in the background. You know, like, some of these things that are very, very common now.

[00:12:10] Shawn: Right.

[00:12:10] Nathan: But everyone was doing stuff on their webcams. Yeah. And so

[00:12:13] Shawn: Well, I had a good… Well, and one of my best friends in Kansas City was an aspiring videographer.

[00:12:17] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:18] Shawn: So I’m like… He… Like, we traded, basically, for exposure.

[00:12:21] And it was like I gave him… I can’t remember. It was pennies, basically. Right. But he had all the gear and was testing out the stuff, so it worked out very well for me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:28] Nathan: But it’s… Those are the ways that you stood out then- Yeah … of, like, leveling up. You know, I did it through, uh, like, designing, like, long-form sales pages- Mm-hmm

[00:12:37] that were actually beautifully designed.

[00:12:38] Shawn: Yeah. You know,

[00:12:39] Nathan: like I

[00:12:39] Shawn: remember. I- Yeah. I studied those pages.

[00:12:41] Nathan: Yeah. And so, you know, the same thing. You- Mm-hmm … you know, you could go and say, “Oh, if I have the right aesthetic and clearly a level of quality.” And it had, like, this zen-like feel to it. It’s like, oh, the Focus Course.

[00:12:53] Mm-hmm. You know? And so, and- Yeah … everything just fit. But it stood out because of the attention to, to detail.

[00:12:57] Shawn: Yeah. Thank you. So we launched that in June of 2015.

[00:13:02] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:02] Shawn: And that was, like, that was, like, a life-changing launch. Mm-hmm. And I took everything I had learned from the previous, like, The Light Is in the Details book launches, studied a lot of your stuff, had other friends who’d done product launches.

[00:13:14] Mm-hmm. And just, like, I teased it. Like, I just, I launched the crap out of that thing. And it did, like, 135,000 in that first launch week. And I had, like, my Apple Watch with the Stripe app, like- Yeah … on. And so my wife and I called it the bling ding, where, like, every time someone would buy the course, I would get a Stripe notification.

[00:13:35] It was like, oh, there was… ‘Cause we had, like, the launch pricing, so it was like 200 bucks as, like, the early thing. And we’re, like, getting these, like, blings. And so the last, like, day of the launch, I had kind of tallied up the math, and I was like, “Okay, we need, like, three more sales, and we’ll, we’ll cross, like, 100 grand.”

[00:13:50] Mm-hmm. So I got, like, some really nice whiskey out of my cabinet, and, like, poured two, like, little shots for me and Anna. And then we waited for, like, the third one, and when that sale came in and we crossed 100 grand, we, like, cheers- … and we, you know, had this little thing. I love that. But that was huge because- Oh, yeah

[00:14:05] previously I was, my business was doing, like, about 100 grand for the year, and then I just hit 100 grand in a week.

[00:14:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:10] Shawn: And I’m like, “I don’t know what to do with this.” Like, I wanted to buy a car. I wanted to- Right … like, move. Um, do I hire someone? I don’t… And I just… This was June. I just sa- I just put it in a savings account.

[00:14:19] I didn’t touch it. And I would just scroll, like, and look at cars, and, like, spend the money vicariously and, like, think about spending it. But I’m like, I can… I could do something with this if I, if I don’t screw it up.

[00:14:29] Nathan: There are some of those moments that as an entrepreneur you’re, you’re like, “Wait, what happened?”

[00:14:33] Especially if you-

[00:14:33] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:14:34] Nathan: like, if we were working normal jobs, we might work our way up- Mm … from 60,000, then get a job at 75,000- Right … then get a job at 80. You know, and then you get a raise and up from here. And we’d go from maybe eventually we’re making $200,000 a year or something like that. Mm-hmm. But we’d probably go on that journey over the course of seven, 10 years.

[00:14:51] I don’t know.

[00:14:51] Shawn: Right.

[00:14:52] Nathan: Right? And you have these moments as a, as an entrepreneur, and especially as a creator, because you have so much leverage, right? This audience, you know, the right product market fit with an audience priced well, all of that. It happens so quickly.

[00:15:04] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:05] Nathan: I remember fairly early on building Kit and getting to, um…

[00:15:11] I’m trying to remember what the dollar amount was in the bank. It might’ve been, like, 200 grand, something like that. Mm-hmm. And I was… This was just 200 grand sitting in a checking account, and I’m, like, asking this group of entrepreneurs, like, “What do I do with this?” Like, this is, this is not- Right … this should be protected in some way.

[00:15:26] This should be all of this. And, uh, this guy who’s the CEO of Bench, the accounting company-

[00:15:31] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:15:31] Nathan: just responded in Slack, ’cause I was talking about this, and he goes, “Hey, $200,000 is a very normal amount of money to have in a business bank account.” And I was like, “Wait. Wait, really?” But it’s exactly that same feeling- Yeah

[00:15:41] you’re talking about of, like, you get 100 grand from your launch and you’re like, “What am I supposed to do with this?” Mm-hmm. And it takes someone going, “Hey, this is normal.” It’s fine. “You don’t need to spend it.” Yeah. “You do, you don’t need to, you know, do all this- Yeah … fancy stuff with it.” Like, this is the new normal.

[00:15:54] Shawn: Yeah, it’s true, and it, it did become… It’s interesting how that becomes normalized then. Mm-hmm. It’s like, “Oh, yeah, that’s, that’s totally fine.” What used to be so much money now is, like, you know, the OS. It’s, like, our baseline what we always- Right … keep in the checking account all the time. Yeah. Um,

[00:16:08] Nathan: yeah. Okay, so you did the launch for the Focus course.

[00:16:10] I remember probably around that time-

[00:16:12] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:16:12] Nathan: we had the whole Kit team go through it.

[00:16:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:16:14] Nathan: So you had this balance of, like, direct to consumer, and then you also had some companies.

[00:16:18] Shawn: Yeah, we started doing some public trainings as well, or, like, corporate trainings- Yeah … as well where, where-

[00:16:21] Nathan: It was really fun.

[00:16:22] We got a lot out of it.

[00:16:22] Shawn: Yeah. It’s been a blast. And trying to figure out, like, different ways to, to get people to go through that course. And that kind of has turned into, like, my main thing for the last 10, 11 years now- Right … has been that Focus course, figuring out different ways to get people to go through it, et cetera.

[00:16:36] ‘Cause the initial version with an online course is, you know, very few people actually finish the material. Right. And the way that our course works is, like, if you don’t finish it, you… Like, almost all of the benefit comes from, like, the final pieces of, like- Mm-hmm … putting it all together for, like, kind of designing your whole life and making everything click.

[00:16:52] So we started doing cohorts, and we found, like, you get a lot more people to go through it that way. But, like, even with that, like, reinvention of the course itself, like, the material itself has evolved and matured and changed and simplified. You know, in those early days, I felt like charging 200 bucks, I’ve gotta put everything into this.

[00:17:12] Oh, yeah. My entire life’s work, plus all these bonuses, plus all this stuff, you know? Or they’re gonna… I still had that thing, like, people are gonna be mad at me. And now I’m like, “How much can I take out? How can I simplify this down to, like, the most- Mm … basic, simple version?” And so, like, even reinventing the way that we’re pitching the course, reinventing the way that we’re delivering it over the last 10, 11 years.

[00:17:34] Mm-hmm. And so we got into the cohort stuff and, um, and then a few other things.

[00:17:39] Nathan: I wanna dive in on the focus aspect of it.

[00:17:42] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:42] Nathan: Because I think a lot of creators and entrepreneurs are notoriously bad at focus. Even as someone who- I’ve achieved a lot of my success through focus. And almost everyone that I talk to, when they have a breakthrough in their business- Mm-hmm

[00:17:56] you ask, like, “What was it? You started doing, like, six more things?” You- And they’re like, “No, I chose this one thing, and I went all in on it, and I- Yeah … you know, stopped doing everything else.” Uh, and that’s where my success came from. You know, like, I tell that story a bunch of times. I know that from my own lived experience, and I hear it from everyone else.

[00:18:11] Mm-hmm. And I’m like, “Yeah, but I’m not gonna do that. I’m still gonna do a million things.” What’s your approach to focus, and what… Like, what are the fundamentals that you’re teaching in the focus course?

[00:18:18] Shawn: I think a lot of it is, like, for me, focus is what I’m choosing to say no to.

[00:18:23] Nathan: Mm.

[00:18:23] Shawn: And, like, removing as much of the stuff that I don’t want to take up space in my life.

[00:18:30] And so not only for the business, for, for me personally, you know, as a husband, as a dad, as a man. Like, what am I going to say no to? And then every- Then all the, like, white space now that I’ve created, then within that I get to choose what I wanna say yes to and, like, just hold, like, those boundaries for myself.

[00:18:47] Mm-hmm. So it’s true, like you say, like, with the, the business, and it’s like… ‘Cause for a, a while I had, I had other blogs too. Like, we haven’t gotten into this, but- … but I had other businesses going. And you and I were out to dinner one time with Noah Kagan in Chicago. Yeah. And he was like, he’s like, “You have a focus business, but you also just told me, like, three other businesses.”

[00:19:04] He goes, “That seems, like, counterintuitive.” I was like- Right … “No, it’s fine.” It’s fine. And I like-

[00:19:08] Nathan: He said counterintuitive.

[00:19:10] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:19:10] Nathan: The meaner way to say it- Yes … would be hypocritical.

[00:19:12] Shawn: Right, exactly. Like, what do you do? You s- you say you teach focus, but you also have, like, these other things. Like, and you… It seems very distracted.

[00:19:19] Nathan: When… And we all do it. Yeah. Especially because this is one of those things, some advice that I hate- Mm-hmm … uh, is what got you here won’t get you there.

[00:19:27] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:19:28] Nathan: Um, because I think that it’s, it’s… That advice is true 50% of the time. You just don’t know which 50%. Mm-hmm. That’s the reason I don’t like it. But an example where I do believe it’s true is early on, you don’t have any of the skills of- Mm-hmm

[00:19:40] product launching, copywriting- Yeah … design, video, all of this stuff. And so going through a whole bunch of reps of, like, I launched this product, and it, it worked. And I kind of did this other thing, and it didn’t really work. You know, you do all of these different things, and that lack of focus to have a wide range of products serves you really well because you’re actually-

[00:19:58] Shawn: Mm-hmm

[00:19:58] Nathan: you could think of them as, like, semester-long projects in college- Yeah … that paid you money instead of racking up student loans. Right You know?

[00:20:05] Shawn: Well, and they’re tiny experiments- Yeah … in some ways as well. Yeah.

[00:20:07] Nathan: Yeah, and but you don’t need to bring them with you.

[00:20:09] Shawn: Right.

[00:20:09] Nathan: And so I went through that moment of, like, I’d done all of these things, and I chose audience overlap as my lens to decide what to keep and what to get rid of.

[00:20:18] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:19] Nathan: But there was, like, five things that I sold off one, I shut down three, you know, and then I put another on autopilot, and I think it’s a very normal thing to do.

[00:20:28] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:20:28] Nathan: But it’s great when you have uh, friends like Noah and others who will, like… Be like, “Huh, there seems to be some misalignment here. Let me call that out.”

[00:20:35] Shawn: Right, and it’s hard to say no to stuff that’s making you money.

[00:20:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:20:38] Shawn: And it’s hard to say, like, this is actually a distraction- Mm-hmm … even though it’s, like, generating revenue and creating… There’s… ‘Cause you can, as an entrepreneur, often you can see, like, the potential of that thing. Mm-hmm. Um, but I call it the burden of opportunity, where these are a lot of opportunities, but if you say yes to all of them, you know, as we know, like, none of them will reach their potential.

[00:20:57] And so deciding what you’re actually going to… What are you gonna shut down? What are you gonna say no to?

[00:21:00] Nathan: Right. So I’m curious, what would you say to an entrepreneur who has a lot of good things going on but can’t seem to focus?

[00:21:06] Shawn: I’ve been there. You’ve been there. I call this the burden of opportunity, where…

[00:21:10] Because as an entrepreneur, you’ve got lots of ideas, and you can see the roads and the paths that they’re leading to, and they’re all exciting to you. They kind of feel like you’re… Like, these are your babies. And when you have all those opportunities, you have to still find a way to say no to some of them and choose the one thing that you really want to give your most attention to, to allow that to be the thing that’s gonna grow.

[00:21:31] Nathan: Do you have a framework or a process that you use to say no? ‘Cause that’s the hardest thing for me.

[00:21:35] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:36] Nathan: There’s so many opportunities coming. And I’ll even quote- Yeah … smart people like Richard Branson. Mm-hmm. He always says, “Opportunities are like buses. There’s always another one coming.” And I can say that quote, and then I’m like, I’m like, “Yeah, let’s get on that bus.

[00:21:47] And the next one.” Yeah. And I think as the team gets bigger, you can do that. You can run more and more things. But I struggle so much with focusing, and so I’m, I’m very curious, like, how you say no.

[00:21:57] Shawn: So it’s gonna be different for everybody. For me, though, the, one of the frameworks that we teach is, it’s just values-based, and then also margin-based.

[00:22:05] Nathan: Mm.

[00:22:06] Shawn: And so I’ll explain these to you. So values-based obviously is what do you value? Like, what do you care about, like, personally as the business owner? As well as what do you care about for your team or for the business and for the company itself? Like, what are the values that you have? And so when you’ve got two or three kind of core values that you know what they are, you can name them, they’re, they’re familiar, you know what they mean to you, then when I have an opportunity that comes my way, I can just…

[00:22:31] Like, initial, like, quick gut check. Does this fit, like, with my personal core values? If I start this kind of a business or if I take the business in this direction, does this align with what I feel, like, most important about, and does it match with my core values? Because if it does match, then when it’s hard and when it’s a grind or when it’s not working or when you’re really afraid, because it matches with your core values, you have, like, extra motivation.

[00:22:56] You have the energy. You can see the why behind it, and it’ll help you keep going. And then also when it matches and it succeeds, then you’ve built a life that you love.

[00:23:05] Nathan: Right.

[00:23:05] Shawn: And you’re doing something that you love that aligns with the core values for who you are, and, like, that to me is the dream. Mm.

[00:23:10] Like, that’s everything. That’s success right there. And then the other piece, the margin piece, this is really important for me personally. Um, I really want a lot of breathing room in my life. I want a lot of white space. I want a lot of just, um, opportunity to just- Be spontaneous- Yeah … during my weeks and things like this.

[00:23:28] I don’t like a lot of meetings on my calendar. I don’t like, um, being pulled into the day-to-day for my business. I don’t like having to do stuff to keep the business running. I just want, like, options, and I also only wanna work, like, 25 hours a week, and then te- be able to have slow mornings, and early evenings, and, like, lots of time off, and be able to travel, and take my kids places, and go camping and backpacking, all this stuff.

[00:23:51] So for me, I’m also always looking for what I pursue in the business, is this gonna give me more breathing room, or is it gonna give me less breathing room? Um, and if it’s gonna give me less, is it a trade-off, like temporary, or is this going to become the new normal?

[00:24:06] Nathan: Mm.

[00:24:07] Shawn: And do I see a clear path through to, to get back to, like, a lower, like, calmer lifestyle?

[00:24:13] So for me, those are the two things that I’m always looking for.

[00:24:15] Nathan: Is there an example of something that you’re like, “Okay, I really wanna do this,” but it… and m- and its value is aligned. Mm. Maybe it’s not margin aligned. Yeah. And you’re like, “Okay, but I’m gonna dive in and do it, and I’m, uh, you know, for a season, because I can see a path to getting back to the life that I

[00:24:29] Shawn: want.”

[00:24:29] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, like a product launch- Mm … would be, like, something like that of, or like a new feature, or when we do, like, a training or, like, an event or a treat or something like that where it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be intense. Yeah. And sometimes it’s gonna be, like, three months intense or, you know, maybe six months.

[00:24:46] Right. Um, like I started a new business this year, which I think we’ll get into, and so there was definitely, like, a shift in, like, my time and energy, like, going into that. Um, but I saw the, the path through for, like, what I was trying to get to. Mm-hmm. And then sometimes there’s things where it’s a, an, a business opportunity that feels values aligned, but I’m like, it’s not gonna, I’m not gonna enjoy it.

[00:25:05] Like, like a YouTube channel. I’ve always wanted to start a YouTube channel. I think it’d be super fun, but I’m like, I just, I don’t think I want the grind of, like, having- Right … to be on that constant cadence, doing it with excellence, coming up with ideas, all that stuff. I’m like, I just, I don’t think I would enjoy being a YouTuber.

[00:25:20] Nathan: Right. Okay, yeah. That’s so interesting. You want the outcome, but you don’t want the process, and so that’s something you say no to.

[00:25:27] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:25:28] Nathan: Yeah. Um, okay, so let’s, uh, keep going in the focus course because so many people, at least my version of doing courses-

[00:25:35] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:25:35] Nathan: was I would reinvent it, you know, or do something different.

[00:25:40] I probably did, well, let’s rattle them off, did the Apps as a Handbook, Designing Web App- Applications, Authority, Mastering Product Launches, Photoshop for Web Design, and then one on building profitable audiences. Yeah. So that’s, I think, in like a three-year period, I did six-

[00:25:54] Shawn: Yeah … different- And now you got your Flywheels course and a few others.

[00:25:55] Nathan: I have the Flywheels course. Yeah. Yeah, so that, I mean, that was just- Yeah … back then. Um, the Flywheels course is, like, born out of an obsession more than a- Right … um, a business. Yeah, so I think I did six in two and a half years, and so I was always making something new.

[00:26:09] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:11] Nathan: I feel like you, um, who else is good at this?

[00:26:14] Ramit Sethi, uh, Marie Forleo, you know, with B-School. Yeah. Like, you get some of these people who, like, this is their flagship thing, and they do it over and over again.

[00:26:22] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:26:22] Nathan: Like, how did you… Obviously, it’s the title of the course, but how did you stay focused and, and keep, like, breathing new life into this- Mm-hmm

[00:26:29] every year for many years?

[00:26:31] Shawn: In some ways I didn’t breathe new life into it.

[00:26:33] Nathan: Okay.

[00:26:33] Shawn: So, like, it, you know, had a big $100,000, $135,000 launch when it came out. Mm-hmm. We did more subsequent launches. None, none of them ever matched that first launch.

[00:26:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:26:42] Shawn: It still did… I mean, I don’t know how many millions it’s done over the last 11 years.

[00:26:45] So still done a lot of revenue but, um, like the big launch. And so we did other courses on the side, like we did a course on margin and breathing room. We’ve done a course on time management. We’ve done a course on task management. So we did, um, add-on courses. Yeah. That after someone would go through the focus course, they’d be like, “Okay, this is great.”

[00:27:03] Here’s what’s next. “But I don’t know how to manage my calendar.” Yeah. Okay. Well, here’s a course on how to manage your calendar. I don’t know how to manage my tasks. Mm-hmm. So here’s a course for that. So in some ways it was like we just started bolting on, like additional, like next paths, like do this next, do this next, and then created this, you know, ended up with like a whole library of stuff.

[00:27:20] So that was one way that I kind of like got around that, that thing. But they were all part of the same ecosystem.

[00:27:25] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:27:26] Shawn: And then also, um, you have to choose which direction you’re gonna go. Are you going to double down on this thing and iterate on it?

[00:27:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:33] Shawn: And continue to sell the same thing to like really understand that core audience?

[00:27:39] Um, like Sam Vander Wielen does this really well, like with her legal templates. Like she knows exactly her audience- Oh, yeah … exactly who to buy. And so she just has really doubled down on that. And she’s doing like

[00:27:46] Nathan: 3, 4, $500,000 worth launches. Right. Yeah, just

[00:27:49] Shawn: crushing

[00:27:49] Nathan: it. At a time when people are like, “Oh, courses and templates are dead.”

[00:27:52] Yeah. And she’s like, ”

[00:27:53] Shawn: Okay.” She’s like, “Yeah, hold

[00:27:54] Nathan: my beer.” “My audience didn’t get the memo.” My audience didn’t get the memo. “So I think I’ll just keep cashing these checks.”

[00:27:58] Shawn: Yeah. Um, so that’s a path to go. Or the other path is you cr- keep creating something new, and you keep selling new things to the same people.

[00:28:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:06] Shawn: And this is… Like they’re both valuable, and they both work. It’s just like deciding, do you wanna keep creating the new thing, or do you wanna kind of double down- Mm-hmm … on what you’ve got that’s working really well? So for me, I loved just the topic of the focus course. I love that ecosystem. Um, it’s stuff that I could teach in my sleep.

[00:28:21] I love talking about it. So I loved building that out and kind of going that direction, um, and pursuing that, pursuing that.

[00:28:29] Nathan: Yeah. You know, a mistake that I see creators make is they, they focus on a topic that they’re either passionate about in the moment, but not long term.

[00:28:37] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:37] Nathan: Or is trendy in the moment.

[00:28:39] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:39] Nathan: And then there’s no longevity in that.

[00:28:41] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:42] Nathan: But turns out, like focus, productivity, some of, some of these ideas, um, you know, like great writing or how to build wealth or… Like there’s a, a- Right … there’s categories of ideas that will always- They’re

[00:28:52] Shawn: generationally relevant.

[00:28:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:28:53] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:54] Nathan: Someone could have written about them 100 years ago.

[00:28:56] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:56] Nathan: And the writing today will look a little bit different, you know? Um, but it’s still- It’s the

[00:29:01] Shawn: same …

[00:29:01] Nathan: it’s the same core, core principle. Same

[00:29:02] Shawn: principles, yeah.

[00:29:03] Nathan: Versus like how to do this one thing with this one tool. Mm-hmm. You know, if you did a, um… I care about design, so if I did a, a course on… Well, I did Photoshop for web design.

[00:29:12] Yeah. We don’t use Photoshop for web design anymore. No. Right? Or if you did it on Sketch, like we don’t, we don’t use that.

[00:29:17] Shawn: Completely

[00:29:17] Nathan: irrelevant. Even Figma, which dominates the market as a de- as the design space, you’re like, well, maybe Cloud Design-

[00:29:24] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:29:24] Nathan: is the, is a thing.

[00:29:25] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:29:26] Nathan: And so I think finding the container that’s big enough that can hold wherever the industry goes.

[00:29:33] Like, you wouldn’t wanna be known for something very, very specific, but you, you know, at this point you could be, like, AI for design. Mm-hmm. And that would be an interesting topic of-

[00:29:41] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:29:41] Nathan: and how to do it. So, like, making sure the container’s broad enough.

[00:29:44] Shawn: Right. Yeah.

[00:29:45] Nathan: But then you started to focus on, uh, like, started to do other projects.

[00:29:48] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:48] Nathan: Right? And lose interest in the, in the focus course. Is that right?

[00:29:51] Shawn: I did. So we… We’re at 11 years now. Yeah. As we’re recording this, it’s, like, in a couple weeks. And around, like, I’d say, so probably two years ago, 18 months ago, two years ago- Mm … I started getting, like, bored-

[00:30:02] Nathan: Yep …

[00:30:03] Shawn: in the business. And it’s funny you say, like, the, what got you here won’t get you there.

[00:30:07] This is only relevant 50% of the time. Like, I like to say the same thing. Like, your business isn’t your hobby. And so it’s like you will get bored in your business, but keep doing what’s working. Um, and don’t, like, don’t sabotage it just because you’re bored. Mm. And that’s the 50% of what got you here actually will get you there.

[00:30:24] You’re just bored of it.

[00:30:25] Nathan: There’s another quote that might be, uh, um, too rough, but, you know, but it’s that most businesses die by suicide, not homicide.

[00:30:33] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:30:33] Nathan: Like, they… Almost nothing else comes in from the outside to kill it. Mm. It’s usually something internal, like founder strife, uh, the founder getting bored, a team issue, you know.

[00:30:41] Yeah. Any of those things. Um, like, businesses are rarely killed from the outside.

[00:30:45] Shawn: Yeah. Self-sabotage. Yeah. Exactly. And so I could feel that, uh, that I was getting bored with it, but I gotta stick with this, right? Right. My business isn’t my hobby, and so it’s working. I’m gonna keep going with, going with as well.

[00:30:58] But I knew, like, what’s gonna be the next thing. So on the side, I had this other, not a… It wasn’t a business going, but I had this other, these other activities of, like, the community stuff. Mm. And I was around some people, and they gave me some really helpful advice around, like, maybe your business is stuck because you’re stuck.

[00:31:17] And, like, that was sort of like, oh, oh, oh. Like, it all started to kind of, like, click for me. I was like, oh, maybe my business is, is boring because I’m bored, and- Mm … it’s stuck, like, because I’m stuck, and there’s something, something with me. Like, the business isn’t broken, my audience isn’t broken, the offer isn’t broken.

[00:31:34] Like, I’m broken as the- Okay … the leader.

[00:31:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:31:38] Shawn: And-

[00:31:38] Nathan: That’s a scary thing to sit with …

[00:31:40] Shawn: it was- It was actually really liberating. Mm. Um, uh, like our friend Daryl was kind of the first person to mention it, and then several other friends like, uh, Tim and B- or Barrett who’ve all been on the show-

[00:31:51] Nathan: Yep …

[00:31:52] Shawn: um, were really helpful in like talking that through.

[00:31:55] And so for me like realizing, oh, I think I need to figure out some stuff for myself and maybe that will help like unlock what’s next for the business.

[00:32:02] Nathan: Let’s dive into the idea of reinventing yourself.

[00:32:04] Shawn: Yeah. ‘

[00:32:05] Nathan: Cause I think that that’s so important. When you start to realize, okay, I’m stuck-

[00:32:10] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:32:11] Nathan: you know, I might be the limiting factor in this business, what are the things that you went through on the personal side and how did you start to unpack that?

[00:32:19] Shawn: Um, what’s fascinating is, so this actually ends up leading to the biggest breakthrough for the business- Mm … that I’ve had in 15 years, which we’ll get to that. So I remember, this is about a year ago. I was in Colorado, and I’ve been doing these retreats in Colorado every summer for- Mm … quite a while. And so I’m out in Colorado preparing for the retreat and I broke my toe, and so I was just sitting on the couch.

[00:32:39] I couldn’t do anything, and we were visiting with family. So they’re all at the pool and I’m just home at our rental like hanging out by myself. So I just started journaling about like what’s the next 10 years for my life and for, for my business and what is this gonna look like. And I’m writing stuff down and I’m journaling about 10 years in my marriage, 10 years with my kids- Mm

[00:32:57] 10 years for my wife’s business. And I get to the Focus Core stuff and I’m like, what does it look like in 10 years from now? I had nothing. It was just- Mm. I- it was li-

[00:33:06] Nathan: So it’s flowing in all the other categories- Yeah … and you get to that category and you’re like, uh.

[00:33:09] Shawn: It was just a black hole. I just didn’t…

[00:33:10] It was cloudy. I couldn’t see anything. Mm. And that was when I began to realize, I’m like, I think, I think maybe I’m done with this. Mm. And I had like, this was one year ago and so it was two years ago that I realized I think I’m the one who’s stuck. Okay. So in between that time, um, I started going to therapy.

[00:33:28] Mm. I started getting like some professional help, doing like a lot of internal work and that like opened up a ton for me and just like helped. I kept, I’ve told you about this like fear of rejection with like putting our stuff out there and I realized I had like some, I had real issues of like fear that people would like not like me from like childhood friends and just ways that you’re treated in high school.

[00:33:50] Like nothing major- Mm … but like it just sits there, you know, and it, it, it, you know, hangs out with you. I took it, brought it into my business with me. So being able to work through a lot of that, um, gave me like some confidence to be willing to try new things. And then as I’m journaling about the future of the business and realizing I don’t know if I see a future for it, maybe I’m done with it, and just being able to be okay with I could shut this down after 10 years and it would be all right.

[00:34:20] So that was, like, a huge, like, revelation for me of I could start something new, and I could end this thing that I’ve been doing for the last 10 years that is my whole online brand, my, my whole Instagram account. It’s all about Focus. Like, this is all the stuff that I’ve done. I could… I could let that go, and it would be okay.

[00:34:36] I wouldn’t be a failure.

[00:34:37] Nathan: Well, you said something. You said that earlier, right? That it was hard not to think of yourself as a failure-

[00:34:41] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:42] Nathan: if the business is shut down.

[00:34:43] Shawn: Right.

[00:34:44] Nathan: Like, uh, and then contrasting that with what you just said of, like, okay, I could get to that point where you’re like, “Oh, no, actually, these are separate fr- from me.

[00:34:50] Like, I can, I can end a season, close a chapter-

[00:34:53] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:54] Nathan: and not be a failure,” especially as you’re like, “Oh, it made millions of dollars.”

[00:34:58] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:34:58] Nathan: Um, how do you reconcile that? Like, how did you go from point A to point B, where you’re like, “Oh, okay, let me actually separate my identity in that way”?

[00:35:07] Shawn: I just had to sit with it for a while-

[00:35:08] Nathan: Hmm

[00:35:08] Shawn: and, like, be willing to, like, put the business on the table and to be like- Mm-hmm … this course, which has become, like, my flagship thing that I’ve done for 10 years. It’s what everyone knows me for. Um, I love talking about it. I love doing it, but I think I could close the chapter on it, and that would be okay.

[00:35:28] It had a good long run. It, you know, it did what it needed to do, and I can, like, thank it. I can thank my customers. Like, and then what I’ve learned from it, and now I can go move on to maybe the next thing.

[00:35:42] Nathan: You said thank it, and that’s something that stands out to me. Like, I think that gratitude is the single most helpful emotion to get to closure.

[00:35:51] Shawn: Mm-hmm

[00:35:52] Nathan: And we have all these experiences or things that we’ve been running or relationships or what- whatever else, and they’re not all good and they’re not all bad. Yeah. Like, there’s so much of it. And when you can sit with this idea, you can sit with gratitude and say like, you know, “Thank you for the revenue, the house that enabled us to purchase, the, the skills that I learned through it, through the rela- re- relationships that I made,” all of those things.

[00:36:18] And you can go through the, the hard things as well, and you’re like, “Oh, thank you for the pain that this caused when,” I don’t know, “the spammers took over, the credit card fraud- Right … and all this because I, I learned in this area and I grew. I became more resilient. Like, thank you for, you know, the failed relationships because I learned how to navigate conflict.

[00:36:36] Mm-hmm. Like, any of those things. It’s a long way of saying I, I just believe that gratitude is the single most effective practice for getting to closure and peace.

[00:36:44] Shawn: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Marie Kondo talks about this in her book- Mm … with tidying up. She’s like, “If you’ve had this shirt in your closet for the last year,” she’s like, “Take it out, say, ‘Thanks for teaching me that I don’t like this kind of shirt,’ and now give it away and move on.”

[00:36:59] Nathan: Yes. Yes.

[00:37:01] Shawn: Yeah, so that was a huge… Like, just being willing to sit with it was kind of how I was able to come to terms with it, and then start to say it out loud. And so, like, I mentioned it to my wife that, that evening. I was like, “I think maybe I might be done with this.” She was like, “Okay. Tell me more.” I’m like, “I don’t know.

[00:37:16] Maybe, maybe I could move on to the next thing.” Then I went to the mastermind in, in Colorado that I, I host and shared it with some of the guys that were there, and it’s like, “I think maybe I’m done with this part of my life.” And them all going like, “Yeah, we know.” Like, “What?” Friends are great. “What do you mean?”

[00:37:31] They’re like, “We’ve been waiting, like, years for you to say that you’re ready to move on to the next thing. We…” They’re like, “We’ve seen it forever. We’re just waiting for you to catch up.” Um, so that was, that was interesting to, to be able to have that conversation.

[00:37:44] Nathan: Well, let’s talk about masterminds- Yeah

[00:37:45] for a moment because- They’ve been pivotal for me in my life. Yeah. Uh, they have been for you. Mm-hmm. You’ve, uh, been to and hosted many. Um, what does it take to put together, like, that group of friends that you can… that can relate to your business and all of that, and then also can be on that level where they’re like, “Oh, yeah, no, we see you, and it’s time”?

[00:38:06] Shawn: I think that the, the biggest piece is, like, who’s in the room.

[00:38:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:10] Shawn: And I’m always looking for, like, values fit first. Like, I want, I wanna get life advice and business advice from someone whom, like, I respect the choices that, that they’ve made in their life. Mm-hmm. So I’m always looking for, for that kind of a thing.

[00:38:25] So the groups that I go to to be around and learn from are the, the ones where I’m putting it together and inviting people, I’m always looking for that values fit.

[00:38:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:32] Shawn: And then you just have to be honest with this group of people. Yeah. And, like, what’s really going on in the business, and what’s really going on with, with me, um, as the business owner so that they can give context relevant feedback and context relevant advice.

[00:38:47] So I think what it takes to put them on is you just need a place. Like, “Hey, show up at this place at this time, and you’re invited.” And it doesn’t honestly take much more than that.

[00:38:57] Nathan: Did you ever have, like, an imposter syndrome putting together these events of, like, who am I to pull together? Like, I, I think of, um- Oh, my

[00:39:03] Shawn: gosh, yeah

[00:39:04] Nathan: uh.

[00:39:04] Shawn: Every single time

[00:39:06] Nathan: still. Yeah.

[00:39:06] Shawn: I still have it.

[00:39:08] Nathan: So I, I was at, um, Social Media Marketing World- In, I don’t know, probably 2015 or something like

[00:39:15] Shawn: that

[00:39:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm And I remember the founder, which now I’m just gonna space on his name, which is terrible. But, um, getting up there and giving, like, the state of social media.

[00:39:25] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:25] Nathan: You know? It was like the, the state of the union, but for social media. Right. And I remember thinking like, “Wait a second. I understand why the president gives the state of the union, ’cause, like, a few hundred million people elected him.” You know? And, like, there was a bunch of votes, there was a whole thing, and you know, that ended up that way, right?

[00:39:40] But, like, you just picked yourself you know, and you organized a conference call together. Uh-huh. And it’s like, yeah, pretty much.

[00:39:47] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:39:47] Nathan: And so y- you know, we always wanna get in… We hear about the masterminds. Uh, oh, Michael Stelzner is the person-

[00:39:53] Shawn: Okay …

[00:39:54] Nathan: who ran Social Media Marketing World. With the masterminds and, and everything else, like, w- I wanna be in the room, I wanna get invited, and the best advice is, like, okay, then create the room.

[00:40:04] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] Nathan: But that’s like, well, would anyone come? How can I-

[00:40:07] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:40:08] Nathan: who am I to possibly put this together? Like, I, I need someone else to do that. Yeah. But you overcame that. Mm-hmm. You started hosting these Breckenridge masterminds, and you hosted a ton of them. Mm-hmm. But, like, w- what would you say to someone who’s like, “Okay, I wanna host my own.

[00:40:21] You know, what are the few things that I need to do?”

[00:40:24] Shawn: My first thing for someone who’s like, “I think I wanna host my own,” would be you don’t do it for the money. But I think the best reason to do it is not to make money from the mastermind- Yeah … it’s to make relationships.

[00:40:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:35] Shawn: And then it’s what it unlocks for the rest of your business- Mm

[00:40:38] and the rest of your life when you leave, when you leave the group. And so the very first one that I ever did, I remember talking to a good friend of mine, and I was just bemoaning, uh… It was recently after I’d done, like, the $100,000 launch, and, like, the business had kind of grown, and I was just like, “I don’t have anyone to talk about money with.”

[00:40:55] Nathan: Mm.

[00:40:56] Shawn: Yeah. “I don’t have anyone to talk about, like, hiring and teams.” And I was like, “I just…” Like, I’ve now alienated myself in some ways in, as an entrepreneur, like,

[00:41:04] Nathan: just- I’m laughing because we name all of our studios in, uh, at Kids Studios- Uh-huh … after Taylor Swift songs.

[00:41:10] Shawn: Uh-huh.

[00:41:10] Nathan: And the one right across the hall from where we’re in is called Champagne Problems.

[00:41:14] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:15] Nathan: And so you’re like, “Oh, I have all this money and I don’t know how to…” Like, you know, we’re talking through- Yeah … champagne problems. Yeah. Which is a very dismissive way to, you know… Like, it dismisses real problems. Right. Right? It causes stress and anxiety. Yeah. And you’re like, “How do I navigate? I have all this opportunity.”

[00:41:28] Yeah. “How do I navigate it? How do I talk to family about it?” Yeah. “How do I still show up authentically to who I am?” And, and having people to do that with is so, so important.

[00:41:38] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:41:39] Nathan: And often, you know, whoever you went to high school with or go to church with or whatever else- are probably not those people anymore.

[00:41:45] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:46] Nathan: Right? Exactly. ‘Cause they’re having very different life experiences.

[00:41:48] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:41:48] Nathan: So yeah, pulling to … I cut you

[00:41:50] Shawn: off. Right. So my friend was like, “What do you wanna do about it?” I’m like, “Well, man, I would love to…” ‘Cause I knew you had your mastermind. Mm-hmm. And that was, like, I had gleaned, like, oh, you can do this.

[00:42:00] You can get some friends that know about business, and you can get together in a location together. Mm-hmm. And you can talk about business for, like, two or three days in a row. Yeah. And just, like, go there and, like, just nerd out on all the business stuff. And I was like, I didn’t know that that was a thing.

[00:42:13] So

[00:42:13] Nathan: I was like- And your costs are, like, a flight. Yeah. Everybody’s splitting an Airbnb.

[00:42:17] Shawn: That’s exactly what we did, yeah. And

[00:42:18] Nathan: some groceries.

[00:42:19] Shawn: That’s exactly what we did. So got some friends together. Like, I had a couple other internet friends that… and owned businesses, and so I reached out to some of them.

[00:42:27] And then I’m like, “Can you invite a friend?”

[00:42:30] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:30] Shawn: And so then, like, I asked my three friends. They all invited someone, and then we had, like, nine people. Yeah. And then, like, couple other people heard about it, and once I had, like… ‘Cause, like, James Clear came. Mm-hmm. Uh, Chase Reeves. Yeah. Uh, like, all, all folks on your show.

[00:42:42] Then I was like, I was able to get, like, a couple other people, ’cause I’m like, “Hey, this person’s gonna be there.” They’re like, “Oh, sweet. I’d love to come.” And so we had this first one in, you know, Colorado, and I had massive imposter syndrome. ‘Cause everyone’s, like, you know, has these incredible businesses, and they’re bigger than me, and they have the…

[00:42:58] You s- you know, James is, like, his email list was only, like, 400,000 people at that time. Yeah. Yeah. And he was working on some new book, you know. But I was like, the value I bring is, like, I can put the room together.

[00:43:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:09] Shawn: I booked the Airbnb. I booked the chef. I told everybody when to show up. I booked the, the van to drive us all to the place.

[00:43:16] All everyone else had to do was show up. And that was a, such a massive pivotal moment- Yeah … for me of, like, pulling it off. Um, and it was the first year of Craft and Commerce, and we… literally, like, half of us flew from Colorado straight to here- … for, like, the first one of that. Uh,

[00:43:31] Nathan: so it was so fun. There’s, there’s something in that of, like, um, I discovered sports, like, well after college.

[00:43:37] Mm-hmm. And I love, you know, soccer and volleyball- Yeah … and all of that. And so I always play on teams that I don’t belong on, and the way that I do it is I’m the one who organizes the team.

[00:43:46] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:46] Nathan: So, like, my volleyball team is Uh, more than half the team are division one, uh, college athletes, right? I do not belong on the team.

[00:43:54] Um, but everyone’s like, “Thank you so much for organizing the team.” Yeah. “Making sure it’s all paid,” and all that. And so you can play at a level, and push yourself, and, and be in rooms- Yeah … you don’t belong in-

[00:44:03] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:44:03] Nathan: if you’re just willing to do the grunt work.

[00:44:05] Shawn: Right.

[00:44:06] Nathan: And, and it, it’d be the, the, uh, the glue that pulls it together.

[00:44:09] Shawn: And I think, too, the thing is, um, like, we wanna be… I was talking to a friend about this just recently. Like, we wanna be invited into those rooms.

[00:44:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:17] Shawn: And it’s just impossible. You won’t be invited into all the rooms. Yeah. And with social media, all, now everyone’s like, “I’m at this event.” And it’s like, you know, I follow, whatever, 100 amazing creators, and they’re all at different events.

[00:44:28] I’m like, “Oh, I wish I could be at all of those.” Right. I wanna be invited. Like, oh, so sad for me. I didn’t get invited to those. And it’s like, for one, like, they weren’t thinking, “Oh, Sean’s on the list. Nope.” “We’re not inviting him.” Truth is, they just didn’t think about me at all. Yeah. Which I, meh, I don’t know if that’s worse or not.

[00:44:44] But the other thing is, like, it would be impossible for me to even go anyways. Mm-hmm. And so it’s like, instead of wishing I could be invited into the room, it’s like, what is the room that I, that I do wanna be in? And what is the, the feel that I want for that room? And what do I want for myself, and what do I want for other people if they were a part of that?

[00:45:01] And then I can just, I can create that. And I can invite myself, and I can invite these other people, and try to make them feel like seen and cared for, and that they’re important, and that they’re valued. And then also, then I have so much more, like, empathy for then, ’cause I’m like, “I can’t invite everybody either.”

[00:45:18] Right. Like, the list of who I want is, you know, hundreds of people. The list of who can actually fit in this Airbnb is 12. Right. And so, like, just physics say, “I’m sorry, you can’t be invited.” Yeah, so it, I think, yeah, just being willing to take that bet, and, like, be the one who organizes it and put it together, um.

[00:45:36] I love it. Yeah.

[00:45:37] Nathan: Okay, so I wanna get into the, kinda the most recent pivot in the business. Yeah. So you’ve been doing, you’ve been hosting the Colorado Mastermind.

[00:45:45] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:46] Nathan: And then you also started co- um, hosting Mashup- Mm-hmm … with Mo Bunnell.

[00:45:50] Shawn: Yep.

[00:45:51] Nathan: And that was a, at a different format, where you’re able to bring not just 12 people.

[00:45:55] You could bring, you know, 45- Yep … or, or that sort of thing. Yep. Um, and so the community has a lot of overlap and, um, that’s been a wonderful event that I’ve been to many times. What I’m curious about is how that evolved into Aspen-

[00:46:10] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:46:10] Nathan: and where you’re taking it now.

[00:46:12] Shawn: Yeah. So coming back to Colorado, my broken toe.

[00:46:17] Yeah. I’m thinking about the next 10 years, and I go, “I think I could shut the, I think I could shut down the focus course.” And it’s like, well, what would be next? And at this point, I’d been doing the Breckenridge retreats for almost 10 years. And then, like you said, like, the list of who I wanted to invite to Breckenridge was way longer than the, like, who could fit in the house.

[00:46:37] So my friend Mo, our mutual friend Mo, he lives in Atlanta, and he was like, “Why don’t you invite people to my place, and we’ll do as a bigger event, and we can fit, like, 50?” Mm-hmm. I was like, “That’d be amazing.” So we started doing… It’s called Mashup, and so we’ve started doing these, and even now Mashup is, like, actually, now there’s, like, the wait list for that.

[00:46:53] But, so who knows? Yeah. Champagne problems. Um, I was like, man, if I was gonna shut down the focus course and could do something else, I would want to do more mastermind events- Mm … and retreats, and just, I would want to host these, like, established, successful creators and, like, the community that’s, like, needed for them.

[00:47:14] And, like, the value that I bring is they’re going, “You just tell me where I gotta show up, and then you’re putting together the guest list, and it’s, like, most of my friends, and then new people that I want to be my friends.” They’re like, “That’s… Thank you.” And I love getting to do that. Like, I… You know, when Anna and I will go back at the end of the year and r- review, like, what do we love from the past year, usually, like, the top two or three things for me, it’s, like, my backpacking trip with my brothers that I do every year, whatever anniversary getaway Anna and I went on, and then it’s, like, my Colorado Breckenridge retreat.

[00:47:44] Yeah. It’s, like, one of my favorite things from the whole year. And I was like, man, that would be… I think I’m really good at this. I really enjoy doing it. Could I- shut down my current business to give myself more capacity and more attention to do masterminds even better, and, like, create a, an even better space for it.

[00:48:03] So that’s what I went to with, you know, when we went to Breckenridge, it’s like, “Hey, Dan, I’m gonna shut down the focus course.” And everyone was like, “Yeah, we’ve been waiting for you to say that.” And I was like, “I think I wanna start something new on the mastermind side.” And they’re like, “Yeah, we’ve been waiting for you to say that.”

[00:48:13] It’s like, all right. Well, I’m glad I finally, I’m glad I finally caught up.

[00:48:18] Nathan: Yeah. Also, they could’ve been- Yeah … a little more direct with it.

[00:48:21] Shawn: Right.

[00:48:21] Nathan: I appreciate the friends who will pull you aside and be like, “Hey, uh, a little unsolicited feedback for you.” Yeah, yeah. “I don’t know if you’re open to this, but…”

[00:48:26] Yeah. And then they just

[00:48:27] Shawn: say. Well, we’ve been teasing it out for like- Yeah … a couple of years, and it just, I, again, like massive imposter syndrome for me. Because just by necessity, if it’s gonna be smaller, and if it’s gonna replace this other business that I’ve been running, I’m like, it has to be high ticket.

[00:48:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:42] Shawn: And it’s like, this is the first time I’m gonna charge, you know, $20,000 for something. Right. And so that feels very… I had a lot of fear. Yeah. Like the same fear, right? Uh, but I just followed the same playbook. I’m like, well, I’ll do it scared. So, uh, I remember driving back from Breckenridge to the Denver Airport as we were wrapping up the mastermind, and basically had gotten, like, quote-unquote, like, permission- Mm

[00:49:04] from all my friends. Like, “You’ve gotta do this thing,” and, like, “Tell us what you need, and, like, we wanna support you.” So just feeling like they were excited about it. And I worked through, like, enough of, like, the general details of, like, okay, I think it’s gonna look like this, these kind of containers. And I wanted it to be…

[00:49:22] I so wanted it to be, like, different or, like, new, because I’m looking out there on the landscape, and there’s a lot of people that run, like, higher-end masterminds. For

[00:49:30] Nathan: sure.

[00:49:31] Shawn: And I’m like, I want mine to be different. And so I, like, sketched out all these things, I’m like, no, it’s just gonna be like all the others.

[00:49:38] We get together, we have some Zoom calls, we have a Slack channel. Like, I’m like, I guess what’s different about it is, like, the unique makeup and, like, the, the culture- Mm … of this group. And that’s what actually will be different about it. It won’t… Like, what’s on paper- The

[00:49:52] Nathan: container’s actually tried and true.

[00:49:53] Shawn: Right. Exactly. Yeah. That’s exactly what it is. And so coming to grips with, oh, I don’t have to reinvent the container.

[00:49:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:58] Shawn: I just need to, like, invite people to join it- Mm … is actually all that needs to be done. And

[00:50:02] Nathan: be clear on who we invite, what the shared values are.

[00:50:04] Shawn: Exactly.

[00:50:05] Nathan: And all that. Yeah. And that shapes it.

[00:50:06] Shawn: Exactly. And so- So that, so I decided to call it Aspen. And I think just as we think about community, Aspen to me is, like, such a beautiful picture because aspen trees in Colorado, it’s actually one organism. Like, all the trees- Yeah … it’s a grove of aspen trees is just one, and they have this shared root system.

[00:50:26] Mm-hmm. And, like, the way that they share values, the way that they share resources, share with each other and things like that. Um, and it’s like, oh, that’s, that’s what this is all about. It’s actually about, it’s about relationships, it’s about community, it’s about connecting with one another. So I decided, like, we’re gonna do it.

[00:50:41] We’re gonna shut down the Focus course, and I’m gonna start this new thing. It’s called Aspen. So I come home from Colorado, and I sit down with my team, and I was like, “All right,” like, “here’s what we’re gonna do.” And they go, “Well, don’t, don’t shut it down.” Like, “We wanna run it. Let us- Right … let us run it.” And I’m like, “Okay,” like, “you guys can have 2026.

[00:51:00] It’s yours.” And, um, and they’re like, “Let’s…” We’re like, “Let’s just do one last hurrah for the Focus course, and instead of doing it as the four, four-week cohort-” Uh, like what if we just do it as one day? Just a live day. Mm-hmm. Like the whole focus course in one day, and, um, just you can teach it your last time and, like, have fun with it.

[00:51:19] Get some new people to go through it, old people that wanna experience it, whatever. And then, uh, and then we’ll take over the, you know, the current community and all the stuff that’s going on right now. I was like, “That sounds great.” And I think because I was now done with that side of the business, I was, like, willing to, like, kind of hold my hands open to it, um, and, like, give it up.

[00:51:39] I didn’t have any, like, control over- Mm-hmm … how it needed to look.

[00:51:43] Nathan: Yep.

[00:51:44] Shawn: So we ended up, like, we did it for, like, 10 bucks. Like, one day, 10 bucks. Okay. Because, like, it’s a 10-year anniversary, and we’re like, this isn’t about trying to make money. This is about we just want to- Share the message … like, share the message.

[00:51:53] Nathan: Yeah. And i- impact people.

[00:51:54] Shawn: Right. And then what ended up happening is, like, we made an insane amount of money. And- Like,

[00:51:59] Nathan: how much money did it make?

[00:52:00] Shawn: So I don’t have all the numbers off the top of my head. Like, but it made a lot of money. Maybe $750,000 in the last nine months.

[00:52:10] And, um- Yep. … because we’re like, let’s, you know, we’ll have, like, 500 people come. I was like- Right … I, ’cause because I was getting bored in the business, we could see it slowing down, and so I felt- Yeah … like people aren’t interested in this anymore or whatever. And so we recorded some ads, and we’re like, “Hey, I’m gonna teach this one-day live event.

[00:52:30] It’s the 10-year anniversary. We’re just gonna charge 10 bucks for it.”

[00:52:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:33] Shawn: And then we had, like, some bump sells and some upsells in place, and we, like, started doing ads on Facebook. And our initial budget was 80 bucks a day. And, uh, we were working with our ad guy, and, like, immediately, like, every… Like, within 15 minutes, we were, like, liquidating our ad spend.

[00:52:48] Like, every single purchase was basically liquidating the ad spend.

[00:52:51] Nathan: Because of, so the $10 on the front end, and then a few- It

[00:52:55] Shawn: was converting …

[00:52:56] Nathan: of the bumps

[00:52:56] Shawn: would be enough to- Yeah. The, the ad spend was converting, the ads were converting so well. So we went from $80 a day to $3,200 a day in two weeks. So we scaled- Just steadily ratcheting it up

[00:53:05] we just scaled by

[00:53:05] Nathan: 50.

[00:53:07] Shawn: So we went from, like, like 3,000 a month

[00:53:11] Nathan: to 100,000 a month.

[00:53:11] Shawn: In ad spend. And we were liquidating every 24 hours of ad spend, um, with, like, actually, like, it was close to, at one point, we were getting, like, a 3X return immediately. And then, so we had, like, 3,000 people that went through the first day.

[00:53:23] I’m like, “Crap, like, this is- This is working … this is going bananas.” So we added another day, and we had 3,000 people that joined for that one, then we added another day. We had 3,000 people that joined for that one. Um, and this is, I mean, this is also, like, September, October, November, which in the productivity space, like, that’s the Super Bowl season for us.

[00:53:39] Okay. So everyone’s interested in, like, life design and reinventing- Mm-hmm … themselves at the end of the year, stuff like that. So, like, it was the right offer for the right price at the right time to the right person, and it just… It’s like, oh, this is what product market fit feels like.

[00:53:52] Nathan: Right.

[00:53:52] Shawn: And it was, like, we just couldn’t, we couldn’t sell it fast enough, and the people that were coming in were the right people.

[00:53:58] And so we had, like, we’re doing these Zoom calls, seven-hour long Zoom workshop. We had 2,500 people live on Zoom for seven hours going through this 150-page workbook. Mm-hmm. And, like, the chat was, like, it was just crazy, and it completely changed the trajectory of our business. So our MRR, like, tripled in, like, 60 days.

[00:54:17] Our community size went from, like, 150 people in the community to over 400 people in the community. Um, and but we had everything in place already for it.

[00:54:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:26] Shawn: Mm-hmm. So it just, like, they just slid right in. We had all the systems ready, and it was just like, holy cow. Like, I’ve always wondered, like, there’s no silver bullet, but this, if there ha- ever has been one for, like, our business, like, this was it.

[00:54:37] Um, and it just unlocked all this stuff. And so then… But my team had already said, “We’re taking over,” so I just handed them-

[00:54:43] Nathan: Mm …

[00:54:44] Shawn: like, “Oh, here’s this, like, much bigger, much more thriving business.” Uh, so they have been running everything for me, and I’ll show up and I’ll do the workshops, and have been teaching those.

[00:54:53] And, um, now we’re doing, like, we do one workshop a month and the focus course in a day thing, and that’s been, it’s been amazing to see- Yeah … like, how, like, being willing to let go of it, then it opened it up.

[00:55:06] Nathan: So that $750,000 in revenue- Mm-hmm … in nine months. Like, what are the other lessons that you take away from that?

[00:55:13] Shawn: I think, uh, this is from our mutual, like, inspiration, Jason Fried. Like, don’t be romantic about how you make your money.

[00:55:20] Nathan: Mm.

[00:55:21] Shawn: And I felt like this was my life’s work, my, my flagship course, and to be like, instead of continuing to raise the price year over year, for us to go, like, way down, like 10 bucks.

[00:55:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:55:33] Um- What were you at before? You were a few hundred?

[00:55:35] Shawn: Yeah, like 500 bucks for the on-demand. 500, yeah. And then we would do it as a four-week cohort, and that was $1,000 for the cohort. But there just wasn’t, like, as much interest. Like, our cohorts, you know- Yeah … we’d have, like, maybe 100 people that would go through a cohort, and so it wasn’t, like, it wasn’t growing anymore.

[00:55:49] And-

[00:55:51] Nathan: Is you inverted it entirely.

[00:55:52] Shawn: Right. We invirt- inverted it entirely. And we’re like, what would it look like for us if this was easy? And how can we also get away with, like, lowering the price without making it feel gimmicky?

[00:56:01] Nathan: Well, the other thing is the conventional wisdom would say, sure, you can do that if you have a large organic audience.

[00:56:06] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:07] Nathan: But you could never make ads profitable-

[00:56:09] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:56:09] Nathan: to that $10 offering.

[00:56:11] Shawn: Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:12] Nathan: And you had run ads plenty of times before.

[00:56:14] Shawn: Oh, we were losing money. I mean, such a great way to light your money on fire. And hit your head into a brick wall over and over and over, yeah. We’re trying to figure out ads, ’cause we had a lot of organic traffic and, like, a pretty good sized email list, but no- Like, we could never figure out ads for like- Mm-hmm

[00:56:30] a couple of years. We could just never figure it

[00:56:31] Nathan: out. At that 2 to $500 price point.

[00:56:33] Shawn: We were doing… Well, we were trying, like, lower ticket stuff, like evergreen- Yeah … webinars, like, free funnels into this, and then, like, an upsell. And, like, I mean, we were, you know, like, a good month we’d make back, like, 80% of our ad spend.

[00:56:45] Nathan: Mm.

[00:56:45] Shawn: And then, like, well, at least we have these people on our list, and then we can sell them something later, which they usually would end up buying later, and we’d like, you know, break even after, like, six months. Yeah. But just never, never really, like, took off.

[00:56:56] Nathan: And then you go this… You stop being precious about it, right?

[00:56:58] Yep. Um, and you let go of all these, these aspects of it, invert the price-

[00:57:03] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:57:03] Nathan: totally change the funnel. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you, you know, you go from a 0.8 return on ROAS-

[00:57:09] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:57:09] Nathan: uh, to a, uh, you know, up to 3X.

[00:57:12] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:57:13] Nathan: Um, yeah. That’s, that’s wild.

[00:57:14] Shawn: It was so fun. It was so fun. Like, my team, like… It was just crazy to be like, we’re spending $3,000 a day on Facebook- Mm-hmm

[00:57:21] and we’re bringing in, you know, 5 to $10,000 a day. Like, just… And what’s funny is my business credit card maxes at 50 grand. So, like, every week I’m like, “I gotta make sure I’m paying off the credit off-” Paying it off, yeah … ’cause we’re, like, spending all the, you know,

[00:57:33] Nathan: all this money. In the early days of Kit, we had to do that as well where- Yeah

[00:57:35] I think there was like… It was like a $35,000 credit limit. Yeah. And we’re just like, we’d pay it off four times a mon- month. I remember going to one of our team retreats and making- Mm … sure to pay off the credit card, because, like, the last thing I need is, like- … a new team member who’s joined, has their company credit card, and it, like, gets declined for their coffee at the airport.

[00:57:53] Right, they’re like- Could you imagine how bad that’d be? Yes. Like, make sure to pay off the credit card. And try to convince Amex to give us a higher limit.

[00:57:59] Shawn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:59] Nathan: Um, okay, so this idea of, like, not being romantic-

[00:58:03] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:58:03] Nathan: about how you make money, what does that mean?

[00:58:06] Shawn: I think… Well, it’s, again, it’s removing yourself a little bit from the business and- Yeah

[00:58:10] removing, like, ego, removing some of my pride, and… Because I remember thinking, if we’re gonna charge less, like, well, maybe that’s a failure too, or it looks gimmicky- Oh,

[00:58:20] Nathan: yeah …

[00:58:20] Shawn: or whatever. And- I

[00:58:21] Nathan: thought you said it was worth $500. Now you say it’s worth 10.

[00:58:24] Shawn: Right. Exactly. You

[00:58:24] Nathan: know? Or… Yeah.

[00:58:25] Shawn: And so just being… I think the fact that because I was ready to be done with it- Mm-hmm

[00:58:31] and was willing to just shut it down entirely, then I was like, well, now everything can be back on the table. Like- Mm.

[00:58:37] Nathan: Nothing to lose.

[00:58:37] Shawn: Nothing to lose. Yeah, exactly. And if the goal isn’t to make money, if the goal is actually just to get this in front of people and to get them to experience the process and go through the material, and then we could even be done.

[00:58:50] Like, after that, the relationship could be over. Like, you went through the course, we helped you with your whole life designs thing. You’ve got your one page, and so, like- You know, now best of luck. Like- Right … you know, we’ve, we’ve served you. Um, I’m like, that could be enough. And so just being, then like stepping away from like the fear of like this has to make money to instead actually this just has to like touch people’s lives, I think- Mm-hmm

[00:59:15] that unlocked some stuff as well.

[00:59:16] Nathan: You know, you mentioned Jason Fried earlier. I, i- if there’s probably one person I’ve learned the most from in my business career, it’s him.

[00:59:22] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:59:23] Nathan: And he has this idea that he talks about from learning to play the drums of how you can’t play the drums well if you’re gripping the sticks.

[00:59:30] Shawn: Mm-hmm. If

[00:59:31] Nathan: you’re white-knuckling it, you know, and, you know, it’s just like you gotta loosen up.

[00:59:34] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:59:35] Nathan: You know, and, um, I took a few friends flying on Sunday this week, and, um, you know, when two different people got a chance to like fly the plane as we’re flying over the Sawtooth Mountains- Mm-hmm … which I know you love, um, you know, it’s the same thing.

[00:59:48] Like you ha- like, you know, it’s such a tense experience. You’re like trying to figure out how to fly this plane, and it’s a little bumpy over the mountains and all that. Mm-hmm. And they’re just like death gripping the yoke. And it’s like, no, you gotta loosen up, and then just… And hold it, everything loosely.

[01:00:00] Yeah. And so those drumsticks, you’ve gotta hold them loosely. And it feels like the Focus course, as it, as you lost some level of interest in it, as it was harder to sell out some cohorts, you know, raised the price, it’s like, okay, how do we make this work? Yeah. And then when you finally let go and said, “You know what?

[01:00:16] Anything is fine.”

[01:00:16] Shawn: Yeah. ”

[01:00:17] Nathan: Let’s just be of service.” And then it takes off.

[01:00:19] Shawn: Exactly. Exactly what it is. Yeah, that’s a great analogy. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:23] Nathan: Okay. What does the business look like today? And how do … I, I- Mm … wanna get into that, and then after that, I wanna get, get into how you spend your time.

[01:00:30] Shawn: Yeah. So the Focus Course now, um, I have an incredible team that we just get along really well, and they’re phenomenal.

[01:00:39] Um, and they, so they run… We have a community- Mm-hmm … inside, so that’s kind of the… That’s the model we’ve gone to, is like the course into the community.

[01:00:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:47] Shawn: And so they run all of that. We do, like one live workshop a month, and, um, uh, I teach that. We have another guy, a friend of mine, that teaches it as well, so, like if I get sick, someone else- Yeah

[01:00:59] you know, I’m not the, not the bottleneck. And we’re still running the ads, and they’re still working really well, and, you know, with ads, like you go… they go up and down. For sure. Uh, seasonality. And so-

[01:01:08] Nathan: Try running ads during-

[01:01:09] Shawn: Yeah …

[01:01:10] Nathan: Black Friday or election season. Right. And they don’t work the same way- Yeah

[01:01:13] they did another time. Yeah.

[01:01:14] Shawn: Yeah, exactly.

[01:01:14] Nathan: It’s a constant thing.

[01:01:15] Shawn: Um, and we’re just finding ways to continue to simplify it actually, and like how much can we remove from all of this stuff and make it simple, make it easy. Um, and so we actually have like a newer version of the material that I’m gonna be teaching.

[01:01:27] Actually, well, as we’re recording this, I’m teaching it about a week from now.

[01:01:30] Nathan: Nice.

[01:01:31] Shawn: Um, and then we’re gonna take the summer off, and then we’ll kinda restart again in the fall. But in that business- And then what- … I’m like maybe 10 hours a month. So very, very much removed at this point, yeah. And

[01:01:42] Nathan: then what’s Aspen look like right now?

[01:01:43] Shawn: And Aspen is, so it’s like a newer, it’s a private mastermind that I’m running, and it’s like it was the, the idea and the dream that summer when I was in Breckenridge talking with my friends, thinking about the next 10 years of if I was gonna shut down the Focus Course, then what would I do? It would be this.

[01:02:00] And so it’s just a, it’s a small handful of people. It’s invite only. It’s, uh, it’s extremely curated. It’s for folks that are already established in their business, and it’s very just like it’s… I’m trying to be open-handed. This is our first year. So I tell everyone, like, “This is the beta year.” Um, so I’m like, “Give me space to, like screw up, and I promise, like you’ll also pay the less, the least amount.”

[01:02:20] Yeah. “Because, like if you’re gonna take a chance on me, like I’ll take a chance on you.” And so, like we get on Zoom basically every week. It’s funny, when I initially talked with everyone when they were getting ready to join, I’m like, “How often do you wanna meet, like on Zoom?” They’re like, “Once a month max.”

[01:02:34] Yeah. Like, “I don’t wanna do calls.” Then when we had our first retreat together in January, I was like, “All right. Well, we’ll see y’all in February at our next call.” And like, “No, can we… Like we wanna do every week.” Like, we like each other. Uh, so-

[01:02:46] Nathan: Yeah, before it’s, “I’m busy.”

[01:02:47] Shawn: Yeah. ”

[01:02:48] Nathan: I don’t have time for this,” and it’s like, “Oh, this is something- Yeah

[01:02:49] I’ll make time for it.”

[01:02:50] Shawn: Yeah, exactly. And it’s just, I don’t know, I’m holding it open-handedly. Yeah. And I try to keep programming right now, like to a minimum, and just allow the space to, like figure itself out- Right … with the people that are in it, like what do they need, um, yeah.

[01:03:05] Nathan: You mentioned that you’re spending 10 hours a month on the Focus Course.

[01:03:09] Mm-hmm. I bet everyone listening was expecting that sentence to end at 10 hours a week. Right. And then you’re like, “Nope.”

[01:03:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:03:15] Nathan: Change that by four times. Margin is something that you’ve always been very intentional about in your life.

[01:03:19] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:21] Nathan: First, l- what are some ways that you build margin in on the business side?

[01:03:25] Shawn: Yeah. Um, when we talk about this on the internet, this always ends up being the thing that most people are like, “Wait.”

[01:03:30] Nathan: You do what?

[01:03:30] Shawn: What? You do what? So, uh, going back to Jason Fried. You and I were in Chicago, like, 10 years ago. Yeah. At, uh, one of those Basecamp 37signals things. They

[01:03:39] Nathan: were hosting a one-day workshop.

[01:03:41] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:03:42] Nathan: Uh, I think with… In their, in their office. It

[01:03:45] Shawn: was in their Chicago office, yeah.

[01:03:46] Nathan: Which has 37 seats in it. Like, and so it was a small, a small group and…

[01:03:50] Shawn: And they talked about how their teams will work in these six-week work cycles, and then they’ll ship, like, a feature for- Mm-hmm … for Basecamp, the software, and then those smaller teams, it’s usually, like, one or two designers, one or two developers, then they’ll, like, take some time off.

[01:04:04] And so I was like, “I love that idea of having a clear idea of what you’re working on, and then when you get to the end of that, like, stop and pause for a minute.” Mm. “And then review what you’ve done, plan for what you wanna do next.” And then we added in this extra week. We call it a sabbatical week. So my company goes in these, we call them eight-week work cycles, where we do six weeks of focused work, one week is a buffer, and then one week is a sabbatical where we shut the whole office down.

[01:04:30] Mm. And we just do this every eight weeks. So we’ve been doing this for, like, basically since 2017 now.

[01:04:34] Nathan: Wow.

[01:04:34] Shawn: And what I love about it is it means there’s always a light at the end of the tunnel. Mm-hmm. So no matter how busy, like, work is right now, I know there’s gonna be, like, a big break coming up.

[01:04:44] Nathan: You do a mastermind and…

[01:04:45] or, like, you host Mashup, and then maybe there’s a mastermind, and then, like, you’re all going to Craft & Commerce. Yeah. And you’re like, “Oh, but there’s a break in another two weeks,” or…

[01:04:51] Shawn: Yeah, exactly. Something like that. So my whole team, which I only have two full-time employees. It’s not like… Mm We don’t have a huge team, but we all take, like, that sabbatical break.

[01:04:59] We’ll shut the whole office down for a week at a time, and they get to go home and just be with their families or hang out or- Mm-hmm … go on trips, do whatever they want. And then for me too, I’m… I like to try to keep my working hours to 20 to 30 hours a week. And so with the Focus Course, you know, I’m about two to three hours a week on that, 10 hours a month or so, and then, uh, about 20 hours a week running Aspen.

[01:05:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:22] Shawn: And a lot of that, um, is mostly just it’s helping facilitate, and so it’s, like, scheduling the calls. It’s checking with everybody. Like, I have a whole, like, people concierge system that I’ve built, so I know what everyone in the group, like, what they’re focusing on, what they’re working on- Mm … what they’re feeling stuck on, so I can help coordinate, like, hot seats for people or, like, navigate conversations, or, like, bring up conversations, um, when we’re getting together and stuff like that.

[01:05:46] Just, you know, hanging out in the chat in the Slack group- Yeah … and stuff like that.

[01:05:49] Nathan: Sounds like a tough gig.

[01:05:51] Shawn: It’s tough, yeah. It’s, it’s really hard.

[01:05:53] Nathan: I’m, I’m teasing you about that. But the… It’s very intentionally designed.

[01:05:57] Shawn: It is. And I think, you know, I’m 45 this year, and- As my business has grown, I think you’re in a, a position of this as well.

[01:06:05] Like, as your business grows and you have those burdens of opportunity that we were talking about earlier, you can end up going in two directions, where your business grows and now your business is a burden. And it’s like I accidentally built myself into a life, into a business that I don’t like, and I have these, you know, like the golden handcuffs of your own business, where it’s like I have to do this stuff to keep it going.

[01:06:30] And I have tried to make decisions as I’ve grown the business of what will lead me towards, like, more breathing room and more freedom and more flexibility in my life. And I would rather trade, like, bigger revenue numbers for a business that I love that also, like, provides me with freedom, because that to me then is the long game.

[01:06:49] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:49] Shawn: Of I can keep doing the work that I love, um in, like, not a ton of hours, and it- I’m not, like, killing myself to try to make it work. I’m not constantly grinding. It’s like at some point your business needs to, like, no longer… You’re not the one who’s, like, pushing it up the hill.

[01:07:04] Nathan: Right.

[01:07:05] Shawn: And in the early days you gotta push up the hill, and you gotta go through those steps, and you gotta do the work.

[01:07:09] Um, but as it begins to mature and grow, like, hopefully you’ve made choices that the business provides you with the lifestyle that you enjoy, you have that freedom that you’re looking for, or whatever it is that you… Some people wanna hustle all the time. Right. Like, not everyone wants to work 20 hours a week and, like, go backpacking and, and do stuff like that.

[01:07:26] Nathan: I like both worlds. But,

[01:07:27] Shawn: yeah,

[01:07:27] Nathan: exactly. Um, if, if you were speaking to someone who, say, had reached the financial levels that they aspire to- Mm-hmm … right? Maybe it’s $200,000 a year, $500,000 a year, where past them would be like, “Are you kidding me? This is our life right now.”

[01:07:40] Shawn: Yeah. Right.

[01:07:42] Nathan: But they don’t have that margin, and they feel like they’re in the grind and they, they don’t wanna be.

[01:07:47] Like, what are some of the first steps that you’d have them take?

[01:07:50] Shawn: Yeah. So what’s interesting… This is a really great question. What’s interesting about our sabbaticals that we do, the eight weeks, uh, we’re one week’s off, that eighth week we don’t get… It’s not like we’re doing less work. It’s a forcing function of focus for the other six weeks.

[01:08:08] Hmm. So because we have this week we’re taking off and because we’ve been intentional coming into, like, the work cycle for those six weeks we’re working, like, we know what it is that we’re working on, and so there’s clarity there.

[01:08:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:19] Shawn: And when you have clarity, a lot of, like, the other busy work stuff just goes away, and you can get the same amount of work done in less time just by being clear on what you’re working on and by saying no to all the other distractions.

[01:08:33] So for us, the six- that, that eighth week after the sixth is, like, that’s just free time because we were intentional, we were diligent. And so it’s like instead of just the reward for a job well done being more work, it’s like, no, we’re gonna take that time off, and that’s how I’m going to… That’s how I’m gonna choose to spend that reward.

[01:08:50] So for someone who is at that, that level where the money’s doing well for them but they’re feeling, like, very overloaded, is I would schedule a week off.

[01:08:58] Nathan: Hmm.

[01:08:59] Shawn: And/or, like, maybe schedule a day off. And just like, “I’m gonna take that week off,” and you’ll find that by knowing you have time off coming up, you’re just a little bit more intentional.

[01:09:10] You’re a little bit more focused, right? It’s like I had a lot of stuff I had to get done before I flew out here for Boise. It’s like, man, I got so much done on, like, the Friday before I, like, packed up for my trip. And when you have that, like, built into your normal life, it’s like, oh, like, I’m clear and I’m focused, I’m intentional.

[01:09:24] I’m not wasting time. And then I’ve created free time for myself, and I’m going to choose to just keep that time free- Hmm … instead of adding in new work for myself.

[01:09:35] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, you’ve built a beautiful business and a beautiful life, which I appreciate you sharing all those details. And I think what’s been so fun is just watching you Continually reinvent what you’ve done over the years- Mm-hmm.

[01:09:47] Yeah … in a way that’s always true to who you are, and, you know, and with purpose and community and all of that. So- Yeah.

[01:09:52] Shawn: Thank you.

[01:09:53] Nathan: Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show.

[01:09:54] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:09:54] Nathan: If people wanna follow what you’re doing, um, check out the Focus course, any of those things. I mean, they can’t go straight into Aspen or any of those things, right?

[01:10:02] That’s invite only. But if they wanna c- start to, you know, have a first step into your world- Mm-hmm … where should they go?

[01:10:07] Shawn: Uh, Instagram’s the best place to find me. So I’m Sean Blanc on Instagram.

[01:10:11] Nathan: Sounds good.

[01:10:11] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:10:11] Nathan: Sean, thanks so much for coming on.

[01:10:13] Shawn: Thanks, Nathan.

[01:10:13] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:10:22] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:10:29] listening.