Why Community Beats Followers (And How to Build One) | 151

[00:00:00] Jayson: If you can’t get an invite into the room, maybe you can create the room.

[00:00:03] Nathan: Do you wanna know how to get into rooms with people who are several levels above you and have a lot more status and influence? Jason Gainer is the reason about 50 of my favorite entrepreneur friends are in my life.

[00:00:14] Jayson: An event like what we do, you can absorb an entire network within two days, really condensing a decade of networking into a couple days.

[00:00:21] Nathan: He wrote the book Community Made, which tells you exactly how by going into how to find your people.

[00:00:27] Jayson: Create a list of 10 people. The hardest one you think to convert, put them as, like, number 10 on the outreach list, and then you go after the first easiest person.

[00:00:35] Nathan: How to invest in people.

[00:00:36] Jayson: The deepest way to invest in a relationship or to start a relationship is to make people feel seen.

[00:00:40] Nathan: And then how to ask them for help.

[00:00:42] Jayson: I had nothing to offer him but support him to launch his book, and I promised him I’d do all the heavy lifting. That became a beautiful relationship. There’s a big difference between building a fan base

[00:00:51] Nathan: and building a community. And what you’ve done with MMT, you created the whole thing.

[00:00:55] You curated the group. But the magic continues even when you’re not in the room.

[00:00:59] Jayson: Doesn’t matter how many friends you can count, it matters how many friends you can count on. I’d much rather have 500 deep relationships, people who have my back, than 50,000 followers on Instagram. By the end, you’ll know how to make it into a room where you’re wondering, ”

[00:01:12] Nathan: How did I even get here?”

[00:01:13] Jayson: Or you can even buy access to find yourself in the right room, but is what keeps you in that room. Amazing.

[00:01:23] Nathan: So Jason, I’ve had the experience of hosting a lot of incredible people at my house, and I realized that most of them come back to relationships that, that I met through you. So I was watching the World Cup and with, uh, Philip McKernan and his son Charlie, and his whole family, and we were just having the best time, and I had this moment of, you know, they’re huge soccer fans, and I realized, like, oh, this is because of Jason, right?

[00:01:47] They’re coming to stay on my farm. Ben Greenfield came to stay on my f- like, all of this is because of the relationships that, that you’ve built. And so I wanna dive into how you do that, how you’ve created, you know, at this point, like, probably 50 of my entrepreneur friends are because of you. And there’s obviously a science to it, and we’ll, we’ll get to all of that.

[00:02:05] But before we do, like, I wanna talk about the, the early side of relationships for you. Like, were you always this business relationships super connector? I actually know that you weren’t. So

[00:02:15] Jayson: when you- Well, if you read the book, you’ll realize very much- … uh, I wasn’t. No, I, I, I wasn’t, uh, that relationally focused.

[00:02:22] And in fact, when building my first business, I did it at the expense of relationships, not burning those relationships per se, but I just didn’t invest any time. And for me, I ended up with a very successful business. Um, but when I got married, I had two people at my bachelor party. I had my brother and my brother-in-law.

[00:02:39] Oof. The entire wedding party could fit in this room right now. Um, so it was clear that I was playing the wrong game. And as I transitioned out of that business, which ultimately I discovered I built a business I hated to enable me to buy things I didn’t need to impress people I didn’t like, I just felt very much out of alignment and I had to find something else.

[00:02:57] And the first thing I was trying to cure was this sense of loneliness that I had. Um, and I was inspired by Seth Godin. I had an opportunity to go to a workshop that he was putting on. And I’ve always been a b- big fan of Seth’s work, but never had an opportunity to kinda see him live in person. And it turns out the theme of it was the connection economy and how there’s huge value connecting like-minded individuals.

[00:03:19] So for me, I saw that as a source of inspiration and I planned something I called Mastermind Dinner, which was, uh, an evening geared towards bringing eight entrepreneurs together for dinner. Um, and I had… Because I had no network, I went through a magazine list of like some of the top entrepreneurs locally and I said, “Hey, I’m doing a dinner for entrepreneurs of this magazine if you wanna join.”

[00:03:42] I probably had a 5% response rate at best, but eventually I had my eight guests. On the first dinner I did, I was incredibly nervous. Um, I didn’t think I could keep my food down. I didn’t know how I was gonna facilitate this. I didn’t know how conversation was going to, to keep throughout the dinner, but conversation didn’t skip a beat for four and a half hours and I just got clarity that being in proximity of people like that was something I wanted to do to some capacity for the rest of my life.

[00:04:06] And that was first dinners, then became MMT, uh, and then I became very, very relationally focused from that point forward. But no, it was not always like that.

[00:04:14] Nathan: Yeah, so you have this line in the book. I’m gonna find it. “Never beg for a seat when you can build your own table.”

[00:04:19] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:20] Nathan: There’s an experience that I think a lot of us have had where you see an event happening, especially ’cause now it’s on everybody’s Instagram stories and there’s reels about it and whatever else, and you realize like, “Oh, all the people.

[00:04:31] Like that person’s there? Are that… Like I want to be there.” And you haven’t done anything yet, you know? Or, or you didn’t get an invite and so you feel some amount of like jealousy, loneliness, uh, you know, and, or you’re like, “Am I worthy?” What do you do with that feeling when you have it and you say, “Oh I didn’t get the invite, what can I do instead?

[00:04:52] Jayson: Yeah, I mean, I, I, the, the premise behind that quote was, I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine, um, and I don’t know who the original source of this was, but he was struggling to get picked to speak at events. And I said, “Instead of trying to be in a position where you’re picked by other people- Mm

[00:05:09] why don’t you build your own stage?” Um, and this is a similar kind of philosophy is if you can’t get an invite into the room, maybe you can create the room.

[00:05:17] Nathan: Right.

[00:05:18] Jayson: And it’s actually a lot easier than people realize because there is a desire and appetite for people to connect and to have a space. Mm. Um, however, it’s a lot of work, uh, to put it together.

[00:05:29] So if you’re willing to put in that effort and that energy, um, then you can ultimately be the catalyst that brings these people together, and there’s, there’s a lot of, of, of value in that, not only being a fly on the wall of these conversations and hosting people, but, uh, David Buss, who’s, um, evolutionary psychologist, talks about, uh, how from an evolution perspective, there’s a level of status bestowed upon whoever commands the most focal point throughout a gathering.

[00:05:57] So if you’re a speaker on a stage and it’s your event, you’re getting most of, of that focal point. And as a result, everybody in the room naturally puts you, um, on a- Higher status … a higher status. Yeah. So that, that’s something I wasn’t aware of when I was starting to do events and that kind of stuff, but that turned out to be a big kind of ancillary benefit.

[00:06:14] And there’s a lot of different e- examples of people who’ve done exactly that, who didn’t necessarily have a network, but had, uh, an interest in a certain- Uh, area or industry and just started bringing people together. Now, an event is the extreme. Right. There’s so many things you can do in advance of that, um, that are a lot lower lift.

[00:06:32] Whether it’s Nick Gray is world-class at his two-hour cocktail mixers. Yes. If you wanna go a step above that, it could be, uh, dinners like I was doing, which are, again, relatively low lift. Uh, and then eventually you can work into something like, uh, what we’ve done with, with MMT would be at the extreme.

[00:06:49] Even the… I don’t know if you’re familiar with the guys from Summit Series?

[00:06:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:06:52] Jayson: They have a beautiful, simple origin story. Summit Series is, like, enormous. They do Summit at Sea where they book out a cruise ship every year. It sells out every year. They bought a mountain in Utah, which is, like, one of the largest ski resorts in, in North America.

[00:07:06] Um, they, so when people see them from the outset, and, like, the type of people that go to their events, they’re like, “Wow.” Like, you know, they don’t understand the humble beginnings. Right. But how Summit Ser- Series started was it was just a bunch of young guys that, uh, again, wanted to be found in these circles, so they started with a ski trip.

[00:07:24] So they invited, like, 40 people in tech, and it was, like, Travis from Uber and s- uh, but this was pre-Uber. Early, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and which just leans into the philosophy of amazing people becoming increasingly amo- amazing over time. So if you can spot those diamonds in the rough, there’s huge value in that.

[00:07:40] And the one thing that the Summit Series guys did is they had got sponsors. They’re like, “Hey,” after they got the 40 people to opt in for this ski trip, um, then they went to Staples and a couple different sponsors and said, “Hey, would you like to sponsor this?” So they got the whole trip paid for, and they were the catalyst that brought it together.

[00:07:56] Fast forward 15 years, I mean, it’s amazing obviously what Summit Series has, has achieved. So, uh, it’s a playbook that a lot of people have used really effectively.

[00:08:04] Nathan: Yeah, I was thinking about, like, this idea of organizing the room.

[00:08:07] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:08] Nathan: So to, to get into a room that you wouldn’t normally belong in. Yeah.

[00:08:12] And so that dinner, you know, in this case, you’re not in the magazine that you’re sourcing people from.

[00:08:17] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:08:18] Nathan: But it gets to a point, like, the first person might be like, “What is this event that I’m saying yes to?”

[00:08:22] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:08:22] Nathan: But once you have two or three, they’re like, “Oh, that person’s going? I’ve always wanted to meet them.”

[00:08:27] You know, we might live in the same town, but we’ve never connected- Yeah … and so you’re creating that. And even the experience that you describe in the book of, like, taking a step back at the dinner and realizing like, oh, it… Like, just curating the group- Mm-hmm … got us, what? 50% of the way there? Yeah. 80% of the way there.

[00:08:41] Yeah. You know? And then it didn’t even have to be are you famous, well-respected, or whatever else. It was like, are you willing to do the work to get the people in the room?

[00:08:49] Jayson: Yeah, and I, I think that’s, um, a challenge that most would encounter early on is, like, how do I get the first couple people?

[00:08:54] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:08:55] Jayson: Um, and I think there’s, there’s two different approaches you can take.

[00:08:57] The first is if you, let’s say you create a list of, of 10 people. The hardest one you think to convert or to, uh, to get to agree to your dinner, let’s say. Uh, you put them as, like, number 10 on- Right … the outreach list, and then you go after the first easiest person. And after you get them, you go after the second person, the third person.

[00:09:14] You build this momentum. By the time you get to the 10th person, you can be like, “Hey, I got these nine other people that are fascinating in their own right.” Uh, and it, it’s … They’re gonna be much more likely to, you know- Yeah … agree as a result.

[00:09:25] Nathan: Your conversion rate is li- likely to increase with

[00:09:28] Jayson: every

[00:09:28] Nathan: yes.

[00:09:28] Jayson: Yeah, exactly. The other philosophy, there’s a, a principle in real estate called, uh, an anchor tenant. So if you have a mall that is just, like, flailing and is not getting any traction, you know if you get a Neiman Marcus or an Apple- Mm … that can completely change, like, just the, the appeal of other tenants to, to wanna kinda, uh, sign leases as well.

[00:09:52] So that is kinda what I did, uh, with the kickoff of MMT. I didn’t have a network at all, but I did have a relationship with Tim Ferriss. Mm-hmm. And when I got Tim to commit, it made it much easier for me to reach out to other people-

[00:10:04] Nathan: Right …

[00:10:05] Jayson: who were either friends with Tim that never find themselves at the same, uh, at the same time, same place.

[00:10:10] So as a result, the event could be a catalyst to reconnect him with all his close friends, and I could also reach out to people who’d wanna be connected to Tim, uh, to speak for the event, and that kinda stuff. So, uh, that is the principle I used for, uh, to effectively kinda launch MMT, but both of those, um, kinda frameworks work for sure.

[00:10:27] Nathan: I’ve done that with some of these masterminds that we’ve hosted. Like, we have an author mastermind.

[00:10:32] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:10:32] Nathan: You know, and the relationship in that space that I have is with James Clear. Yeah. We’re, we’ve been good friends for, I don’t know, 14 years now, and he’s building a publishing company. I’m building an email company serving authors.

[00:10:43] And so we’re like, “Wait, we’re trying to reach the same group. Let’s just team up.” Yeah. Yeah. And our hit rate for people who say yes to that event is just insanely high because our anchor tenant is the guy who sold 30 million copies.

[00:10:56] Jayson: Dude, I will say, getting back to what you said at the beginning of this episode, when I saw photos of, like-

[00:11:01] your first mastermind and some of the people there, I was like, “Man, what can I do to get in that room?” Um- Well, you’re

[00:11:06] Nathan: coming to

[00:11:06] Jayson: that one in like four weeks … I, I feel so, I feel so grateful. So. I don’t wanna, like, yeah, I don’t wanna jinx it. But, um, 100%, that’s a- another strategy as well, um, that I forgot about, is the act of partnering with somebody.

[00:11:20] Mm-hmm. Again, putting on these experiences can be a lot of work, and years ago, two good friends of mine, Michael Fishman and a guy named Ramit Sethi, who’s actually the more popular of the two, especially now, um, they partnered on hosting a dinner in New York once a month for years. Mm-hmm. Uh, and they had six people.

[00:11:36] Michael would invite three people. Mm. Some, uh, Ramit would invite three people, and they would do the dinner. And at the end of the year, they would do a closing party for the year, invite all the dinner guests- Right. Oh … for the dinner. And, uh, I don’t know the dynamic.

[00:11:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:51] Jayson: If the dinner were to happen now, again, Ramit is, like, more of the draw, uh, and Michael would be doing a lot more of the, like, the orchestration and the heavy lifting.

[00:11:58] Um, but the partnering is actually a, a brilliant philosophy, uh, as well. And there’s even people I know that, um, are big name individuals, lots r- lots of reach and great networks, and that kinda stuff, who wanna bring people together, um, but don’t have the bandwidth to do so. Right. So if you’re willing to be the person who’s willing to do that heavy lifting, uh, it can be a fantastic win-win.

[00:12:21] Nathan: Yeah, I love that. You know-

[00:12:23] Jayson: I gotta put that in the book. That was smart. Gosh, we should’ve done this interview six months ago.

[00:12:27] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. Well, I have an advance reader copy. You have the finished one, but you’re still marking up the finished one.

[00:12:32] Jayson: It will forever be, yeah. Yeah. It’s never gonna stop.

[00:12:34] Nathan: That’s how it goes.

[00:12:35] You know, along those lines of being the one to curate the group- A strategy that I do is I love playing, like, city league sports.

[00:12:42] Jayson: Mm.

[00:12:42] Nathan: So volleyball and soccer.

[00:12:43] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:12:44] Nathan: And I, I didn’t play sports growing up, and so I want to play at a level that’s far beyond what I would get invited to play at. But no one wants to run the teams, you know, and be sending out texts of like, “Hey, you know, there’s a 9:00 PM game on Wednesday.

[00:12:58] You gonna be there?” You know? Yeah. And so if you’re just the one to facilitate the group … Like, on my volleyball team, more than half of the team, like, played in college at a very high level. Like, one player is a NCAA Hall of Fame player. Like, all of this, right? And I love playing at that … ’cause they just make me so much better, but I, I have no business being on that team except for the fact that I organize it, and they’re all so grateful that I put together the team.

[00:13:21] And they’re like, “Thank you so much for inviting me to this.” And I was like, “You played on ESPN.” Like … And but it, it’s like putting the room together, and the same experience, right? So you introduced me to Will Guidara. He’s, uh, been on the podcast, and he came to our author mastermind. And I had two different experiences with him.

[00:13:39] One was we’re, we’re at this, like, really fancy hotel, like, farm resort outside of, uh, Nashville, and watching the hotel staff absolutely lose their minds that Will Guidara was at, staying at their hotel. They’re just like- … “You wrote the book,” you know, all that. So that was one experience. Yeah. And the other experience was Will being like, “Man, thank you so much for inviting me.

[00:14:02] This was amazing.” You know, and we’re like- Thank you so much for coming.

[00:14:05] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:14:06] Nathan: But, but he was so grateful to be in the room with people that he could learn from and, and, and all of that. And so being the person to put it, to put together the, the room is like a huge gift.

[00:14:15] Jayson: Yeah, and I mean, I, I experienced that with you at MMT- Yeah

[00:14:18] to some degree. I mean, it, it’s, it’s very much people come up to me afterwards with, like, appreciation. Mm-hmm. And I was like, “This would not work if you were not here.” You know what I mean? Like, you… The, the magic of this i- I mean, a room is simply four walls. Mm-hmm. Right? So the magic is the people in it.

[00:14:33] And yes, there’s an element of, like, curation and all the work that goes into it, but the magic is, is truly the people who, who, who show up. So, um, yeah, it becomes this just beautiful kinda reciprocal thing. But there’s, there’s the, the one way of building your own table, and then there’s the other way of potentially buying access.

[00:14:51] Yeah. Whether that’s finding yourself in the right rooms, going to, into the right events. And those experiences can really deliver on one of the most valuable assets for folks, which is speed. Mm-hmm. Uh, the speed of relationships specifically. Because if somebody comes to an event like what we do, anything that’s highly curated specifically, you can absorb an entire network within two days.

[00:15:12] Right. Really condensing a decade of networking into a couple days. So, um, there’s many ways to the mountaintop. Um, I started again doing the dinners and all that kinda stuff, which evolved into kinda MMT. And now thankfully, I’m, I’m starting to finally after all these years get in- invited into the right room, so.

[00:15:29] Nathan: Hey, just a quick note before we keep going. If you usually just catch episodes whenever they pop up in your feed, take a second to hit subscribe or follow. We’ve got some great conversations coming

[00:15:39] Jayson: up, and that’s the easiest way to make sure you don’t miss them. Thanks so much for your support.

[00:15:43] Nathan: Well, you have this section in the book here.

[00:15:45] I was… I love the il- the illustrations in here. But, um, you know, you’re talking about three ways of getting access.

[00:15:53] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:54] Nathan: And that’s money, moxie, and service.

[00:15:56] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:56] Nathan: So break those down.

[00:15:58] Jayson: The story I share in the book pertaining to money is a good friend of ours, uh, Andrew Wilkinson. And he’s famous for many reasons, uh, but he is the co-founder of Tiny, which is ultimately a, a holdco of wonderful internet companies.

[00:16:14] They own AeroPress and Letterbox and a slew of, uh, just again, great businesses. And it was probably about five years ago now, he- won a charity auction to have lunch with Bill Ackman. Mm. It was $57,000, which a lot of people thought was insane at the time. Um, and he had the, uh, the lunch with Bill and his partner Chris at a restaurant called Marea in New York, and they were just peppering Bill with so many questions about Starbucks stock or parenting, um, and they were just so insatiably curious, and fascinating in their own right, which was important.

[00:16:52] And I share that because Bill actually enjoyed the conversation so much, he’s like, “I would’ve done that for free,” and invited both Chris and Andrew to their offices after the fact to meet his team and all that kind of stuff. And fast-forward about a year later, Bill became the biggest investor in WeCommerce at the time.

[00:17:09] It was, I think it was a $40 million investment- Mm-hmm … and helped take the company public. Um, so the ROI from that one dinner, uh, of that $57,000, which again, a lot of people thought was- Right … was, was wild, um, was pretty significant. So that is one way, is you can buy access. I shared a story with you offline of one of the things that set me on a completely different tr- trajectory was attending an event that was $10,000 to go- Mm

[00:17:34] um, that Tim Ferriss put on. I had no, uh, no right to be in that room. But, uh, I courageously cut that check, and that, yeah, that event completely set me on a whole new trajectory. So, um, that is one way to kinda build a network, is being willing to invest capital, uh, and to get access to those rooms. The other one is moxie.

[00:17:58] Uh, the other story I share pertaining to Andrew ironically as well, is well before he was minted a billionaire He, and he still does this to this day, which I admire him so much for, he would send emails to people cold all the time. Um, so when he was starting Metalab, he would find companies on TechCrunch that had just raised money, and would send them real- like, a simple email saying, “Hey, I just saw you guys raised money.

[00:18:21] We should work together.” Like, that was the essence- Yeah … of the email. Um, and that led to, like, some really big clientele. So he’s just super-

[00:18:27] Nathan: Well, like Metalab designed the first version of Slack, as an example.

[00:18:31] Jayson: Y- yeah.

[00:18:31] Nathan: Like, right so if you, to give you an idea of the caliber of people that they

[00:18:34] Jayson: ended up working with.

[00:18:34] What it’s grown to over time- Yeah … for sure. Um, but, like, he was just religious with, like, cold outreach. And he stumbled across Dan Gilbert’s, uh, story, and ended up emailing him at, like, 2:00 AM one day just saying, like, “Hey, I think what you’re doing is fascinating, uh, in Detroit.” So Dan Gilbert is the, uh, founder of Quicken Loans.

[00:18:53] Nathan: Yep.

[00:18:54] Jayson: Um- Rocket

[00:18:54] Nathan: Mortgage,

[00:18:55] Jayson: all of that. Yeah. Yep. And it’s worth a couple billion dollars, and, like, invested I think, like, 5 billion or something like that into, like, Detroit.

[00:19:00] Nathan: Yeah, he’s trying, he’s trying to reinvigorate downtown Detroit-

[00:19:04] Jayson: Yeah … like,

[00:19:04] Nathan: single-handedly.

[00:19:05] Jayson: And that really inspired Andrew. On some small level, he’s trying to do that with Victoria, where he’s based out of, and he was just fascinated by that, so he sent him a cold email.

[00:19:14] And he said within, like, 15 minutes, this was, again, in the middle of the night, um, Dan replied, “Yeah, I’d love to meet up.” And so he invited him to Detroit, and it was, again, Andrew and his business partner, Chris. They spent the full day with him in Detroit. Again, he met his team and all that kind of stuff, and that was just from a, a simple email.

[00:19:30] So not everybody has $57,000- Right … to buy access, but everybody has access to email. And in conversation with Andrew last week, I mean, it… He he has so many wild stories. He emailed, cold emailed Mark Zuckerberg, like seven, eight years ago. Um, I don’t know if I should share this story- … but we’ll keep it in.

[00:19:47] Yeah. I’m sure he’ll be okay with it. He e- cold emailed him, ’cause he was going to Vancouver or something like that, and, uh, Victoria, where Andrew lives, is a th- 30-minute flight. And didn’t think anything of it. Never heard a response until the night before. And, uh, Mark’s like, “Yeah.” Well, he asked him to, if he want to do dinner.

[00:20:03] It was like a super quick cold email, asked Mark Zuckerberg, “Do you wanna do dinner?” And the night before, uh, Mark said, “Yeah, sure, let’s do it.” And then the funny thing is, uh, this is why Andrew’s legendary, he, um, he, he couldn’t get off the island to go to… He couldn’t catch a flight. There was no flights to catch.

[00:20:22] He couldn’t get a ferry. He was trying to see if he could rent some rich guy’s boat- Yeah … to, like, carry him over. So he actually, then he emailed Mark. He’s like, “I can’t actually do dinner.” Oh, sorry. So he’s, like, the only person who’s ever stood up Mark Zuckerberg. But the amount of doors that have opened- Right

[00:20:35] as a result of his cold outreach is wild, and it’s still something he practices to this day. So if you can’t cut a big check, then, then cold outreach is a, is a great option as well. And then the final one is-

[00:20:45] Nathan: Well, before we get into that, like the- Yeah … I mean, I love the idea of moxie, because it’s something that As a, like, really shy teenager- Yeah

[00:20:53] I would not talk to anybody. Yeah. And I remember actually the first, like, real conference I went to was an event, it was called An Event Apart, and, uh, it was a web design conference. Mm. So all of the, like, biggest founding names in the web standards movement and, like, web design, um, were all speaking there, and this was everyone that I had learned from.

[00:21:11] I’d read all their blogs and all of that. And I went to that conference. I’m like, “Oh, man, I’m gonna be in the room with all these people.” And I met two people the entire time, and they were both people that I sat next to at, like, a meal or something- Yeah … who introduced themselves to me, ’cause I was so shy.

[00:21:25] And I had this experience of walking from the, the venue back to the hotel on the Seattle waterfront and realizing that all the speakers were walking, like, 100 feet in front of me. I’m like, “Wait, th- these are the people who I’ve learned everything from.” And so I, like, sped up a little. Like, I walked a little faster so I’m, “I’m gonna join their conversation.

[00:21:43] Like, this is gonna be amazing.” And then I, like, got to maybe 15 feet away and totally chickened out- … and, like, slowed down again. And then I was like, “I can do this. Okay, let’s go.” And did it again. And then went, “Yeah, no.” And so it’s, like, this accordion, like… And that, they were probably like, “What’s this guy’s deal?”

[00:22:01] But then they turned, and I realized that they were staying at the same hotel I am.

[00:22:04] Jayson: Mm.

[00:22:05] Nathan: And I had dropped back a little because I was like, “I gotta get the scourge.” And they walked into, um, the hotel, and they turned to go to the lobby, and like the little restaurant and bar area there, and they all sit down.

[00:22:17] And I was like, “Okay, here’s another opportunity that I can join. It’s a more casual setting than acc- accosting them on the on the street.” And I just kept walking and went straight to my room and didn’t, because I couldn’t get up the moxie to- Yeah … uh, to say hi to them.

[00:22:30] Jayson: Well, I appreciate that transparency, ’cause I think people look at folks like you and I, that we can just walk into a room and like own the room.

[00:22:36] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:22:36] Jayson: To this day, I still have to like psych myself up. Uh, I have so many stories of like being in the hotel, my hotel, like, uh, room- Mm-hmm … in the washroom, looking in the mirror, trying to psych myself up to go downstairs for a cocktail mixer. Right. So it’s, uh, it’s important, but there is also… And at the…

[00:22:55] It is good to see other people who are bold. Mm-hmm. How those moments of boldness can compound into incredible- Right … things over time. But one of the things that has always helped me is this philosophy that like eight, eight seconds of courage can change your life. Right. And I learned this through skydiving.

[00:23:11] I’m terrified of heights. Uh, so I thought the best way to overcome being terrified of heights is to hop out of a plane at 10,000 feet. Yeah. Didn’t work. But regardless, were you… Have you gone skydiving before? I have. So you’re going up in like circles, and- And

[00:23:23] Nathan: it’s a little plane. It takes forever to get up there.

[00:23:25] Oh, it’s brutal.

[00:23:25] Jayson: Uh, so you’re there, and you’re like, “Oh, this is taking forever.” And, uh, then the door flings open, and then it feels like you’re getting sucked out of the plane, and it’s loud. And I remember I was just like frozen. I remember telling myself, “Eight seconds of courage will change your life. All I have to do is get out of this plane, and then, like, whatever happens, happens.

[00:23:40] If I die, I die.” “But like, I just need eight seconds of courage.” And that has served me well. If I need to step on stage and I don’t feel comfortable delivering a talk, uh, in social situations, again, like you’re just breaking into a conversation, and then once you’re there, you’ll, you’ll have to figure it out most likely.

[00:23:56] Um, so yeah, just appreciate that, that, that share and the eight- Yeah … seconds of courage framing has been helpful for me.

[00:24:02] Nathan: There’s another version of it that has been helpful for me. I, I try to contrast… Like if I’m i- uh, talking to someone, especially someone famous, I don’t wanna be the… Like I don’t wanna be a burden on them, I don’t wanna intrude and all this, but I really wanna meet them.

[00:24:14] And so the thing that I always think about is two types of energy to bring to a conversation. There’s lingering energy, and there’s leaving energy.

[00:24:21] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:22] Nathan: And so I just always try to bring leaving energy. So if I come up, you’re talking to your friends, and I’m like, “Hey, I, sorry to interrupt,” you know, all this, and then I’m like, “It’s so great to meet you.

[00:24:30] I’m a big fan.” And I’m like They’re like, this is lingering energy and it’s awkward, and then they might be like, “Okay,” like they might wanna end the conversation. And that’s not the feeling I wanna leave anyone with, and that idea is going to put me in a place where I’m like, “Well, I don’t even wanna have the interaction to start with.”

[00:24:46] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:24:47] Nathan: So what I started doing is what I call leaving energy. So the first time that I did this was actually Chris Brogan had given a talk at Social Media Marketing World, and afterwards everybody lined up.

[00:24:59] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:25:00] Nathan: And we’d exchanged emails before. This is in like 2016 or something. Yeah. And so, like I had a, a bit of an online presence and all that, but I wasn’t a speaker, I wasn’t any of those, those things.

[00:25:10] And I w- walked pa- You know, there’s 20 people lined up to talk to him, and I walked past the entire line and said, “Hey, Chris, great talk. I’m Nathan Barry. We emailed earlier. Um, just, uh, wanna say that was fantastic. Would love to ca- catch up later at the closing party.”

[00:25:23] Jayson: Mm. ”

[00:25:24] Nathan: I’ll catch you later.” And then walked away with leaving energy.

[00:25:26] And so it was a 45-second interaction, and it … I don’t know, I don’t know if this is arrogant or what, but I gave him … I was like, “You know, you’ve got … You got your fans, all of that.” Yeah. “I’ll catch you when, you know-”

[00:25:37] Jayson: Yeah. “…

[00:25:37] Nathan: you’re not doing your thing.”

[00:25:38] Jayson: That feels like some Neil Strauss.

[00:25:41] Nathan: And so what happens is it takes all the pressure off.

[00:25:44] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:25:44] Nathan: Because if I am wasting someone’s time, okay, I wasted 45 seconds of their time. And then I actually did this at, um … I was at the Cannes Lions Festival earlier this year.

[00:25:54] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:54] Nathan: And so it was like all the biggest marketers and creators and all of this. And Steven Bartlett is about to go on stage, and I’m there for his talk.

[00:26:02] Um, I know some people on his team, but I’ve never met him- Yeah … all that. And I realize that from where I’m sitting, it’s like this outdoor stage He’s sitting across the stage, like, kinda, kinda half backstage and all that, talking to someone. I don’t know if it’s someone that he’s never met before, I don’t know if it’s t- his team member or whatever.

[00:26:18] I’m like, “Oh, this is the perfect opportunity. He’s not going on for another six minutes. I should go say hi,” but there’s, like, tons of people in the way. And I realize I can actually, like, walk backstage easily and around the stage and get to him. And so I did that, and I got up, walked over, and I was like, “Hey, Steven, my name’s Nathan.

[00:26:32] I run a company called Kit. You guys have actually used us for some of your…” And he’s like, “Oh, I know Kit. Like, that’s great.” And we talked for, like, a minute, and then I was like, “All right, I’m gonna go.”

[00:26:40] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:41] Nathan: And, you know, I knew he was both captive and he knew that I knew he had to g- you know, it was super quick.

[00:26:47] And then he ended up following me on X a week later. Oh, wow. And then, uh, after that… And I was like, “That’s random. Okay.”

[00:26:53] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:26:53] Nathan: And then we ended up having a, like, an hour-long call on WhatsApp at 11:00 PM. Oh, wow, dude. ‘Cause he was like, “I wanna dive into the email world and-

[00:26:59] Jayson: Yeah …

[00:26:59] Nathan: and all of this, this stuff.”

[00:27:00] And it’s just that idea of, okay, leaving energy, ei- eight seconds of courage, like, let’s just make this happen.

[00:27:06] Jayson: Yeah. No, it, it’s such a, a beautiful story that you share because it, it… That’s how relationships are formed. Mm-hmm. And the, one of the challenges a lot of folks have when meeting somebody is they put them on a pedestal.

[00:27:17] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:17] Jayson: And when you put somebody on a pedestal, unconsciously you’re almost articulating that you’re not on the same level.

[00:27:23] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:27:23] Jayson: So when you do have that, like, cool approach with what, what you did with Chris Brogan of just, like, a quick hello and, like, “We’ll, we’ll cross paths,” even if you don’t- Mm … if you see Chris a year from now or two years from now, there’ll be many touch points you’ll have.

[00:27:36] Yeah. I have, I have had the same, a similar experience with a lot of other people. Um, and for me, it’s almost like I look at it through the lens of, like, I just wanna plant the seed of the relationship and look at it through a long-term lens that, like, most likely we’ll cross paths in two, three years. And they know I’ve never put them on a pedestal.

[00:27:50] Right. Uh, which is I think really, really important.

[00:27:53] Nathan: Well, I think it’s also an abundance mindset versus a scarcity mindset. Mm. The scarcity mindset is, “This is my one shot- Yeah … to convince Tim Ferriss, whoever el- ” Like, this is In two minutes, I’ve gotta pack everything in and all that, and you’re like, that brings off, like, not an energy that people wanna hang out.

[00:28:11] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:28:11] Nathan: But the abundance mindset is like, oh, we’re gonna be in rooms together. I don’t need to make a whole big campfire right now. Yeah. I just need to plant a seed, have a spark, any of those things. Because, like, look, you and I are the kind of people that are gonna cross paths in the future.

[00:28:26] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:27] Nathan: But I just need y- I need to have that first interaction now.

[00:28:29] Jayson: 100%, yeah. And I mean, just go one step further. Just if you embrace a little empathy and put yourself in their shoes- Mm-hmm … you gotta think, 98% of the interactions they have, people want something from them.

[00:28:39] Nathan: Right.

[00:28:39] Jayson: Whether it’s a photo, investment, whatever the case may be, if you don’t bring that inter- that energy to the first interaction or first couple interactions, you know, they let their, their guard down.

[00:28:48] Um, and as a result, it gives you an opportunity to actually forge-

[00:28:51] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:28:52] Jayson: a proper relationship as opposed to this, like, weird dynamic of like you’re a super fan or whatever- Yeah … the case may be, so.

[00:28:57] Nathan: And I would say almost every time I’ve done that at a conference, the opportunity to have a real conversation has come within the next 48 hours.

[00:29:05] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:29:05] Nathan: Because you will cross… You know, there’s only 200, 500 pe- people at the event, and, like, you will cross paths again. And you’ll, you’ll catch, you’ll see them at a time when they are leaving a conversation or walking to a room, and you’re like, “Do I know anyone?” And they’re like, “Oh, I know you.”

[00:29:18] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:29:18] Nathan: I know you from 30 seconds from yesterday, but-

[00:29:21] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:29:21] I me- I mean, for what it’s worth, I just attended at, an event recently, and one of the strategies I have, um, is like to plant as many seeds as I can. Mm-hmm. So I’ll introduce myself to somebody really quickly, and then, like, if maybe won’t have space for a deep conversation, but that serves as a great jump-off point- Mm

[00:29:37] for a follow-up after the event. Um, which can then, you know, lead to- Yeah … a f- you know, call or just again, a bigger planting of the seed. So you’re good at this stuff, I will say.

[00:29:47] Nathan: Learned from the best. So of those three, we, you know, uh, we covered money and moxie, and the last one we, we have talked about, which is service.

[00:29:54] Is there anything else on service that, um, we haven’t covered that, like, is a

[00:29:58] Jayson: good way to do service? Yeah, so service is actually the act of really supporting somebody, oftentimes through the lens of- Of donating your time, apprenticing, that kind of stuff. I think apprenticeship is a lost art. Um, and somebody who I think has done that exceptionally well and navigated that really well is Ryan Holiday.

[00:30:17] Um, he was effectively a college dropout, uh, and then started working with Tucker Max to support him with, uh, his book launch, and, uh, then was introduced to Robert Greene and became his research assistant, and did a lot of, like, tasks that Robert Greene didn’t wanna do. Um, and did it with a smile and did the best work he could, and that blossomed into a beautiful kind of relationship.

[00:30:41] But then when it was time for Ryan to do a book, then he had Robert Greene’s, you know, support. Um, and as Robert Greene’s, like, stock has kind of continued to climb in the world, as has Ryan, and even some would say, you know, Ryan has almost eclipsed him to, to some degree. But, uh, one of the beautiful things about Ryan is he always holds Robert in such h- high regard- Mm-hmm

[00:31:01] as, like, a mentor and always kind of looks at him through that, that lens. But I share that because it’s a great opportunity, um, to reach out to people. I mean, you, you, you probably get this all the time too, though, like, people who reach out to you and like, “Hey, I wanna volunteer or help,” or whatever the case may be, and they almost put the onus on you to come up with ways that they can be helpful.

[00:31:20] Right. Uh- Mm-hmm … and I remember there’s a story about Warren Buffett and Benjamin Graham. I think it’s part of the book. Yeah. It’s a brilliant story, uh, where Warren Buffett, uh, wanted to work with Benjamin Graham, who was, uh, his professor at the time and had, um, his own investment kind of arm. And he’s like, “I’ll volunteer for you.

[00:31:37] I’ll do whatever you want.” And Benjamin, um- ”

[00:31:39] Nathan: I’ll work for free.”

[00:31:40] Jayson: Yeah, he’s like, “I’ll work for free.” And he’s like, “It’s not free to me because, like, I have to take you on, I have to train you,” and all those kind of things. And Warren was persistent and eventually ended up kind of working with Benjamin. But I think that’s the, the thing that a lot of people forget, which is even, like, the notion of almost, uh, gospel around relationships that you should ask people, like, “How can I help you?”

[00:31:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:58] Jayson: And to me, I think that’s incredibly pro- problematic, um, because you’re putting the onus on the other person to come up with, with ways that you can be helpful, and they don’t have full inventory of your experiences, your expertise, uh, all that kind of stuff. So coming from a place of service, if you are going to reach out to somebody, uh, again, it’s a fantastic way to forge relationships.

[00:32:18] Actually, that’s how I forged a relationship with a guy named Shep Gordon. Oh, yeah. I had nothing to offer him but support him to launch his book. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I promised him I’d do all the heavy lifting, and, uh, that became a beautiful kind of relationship. But I reached out to him cold and said, “Hey, I know you’re coming out with a book.

[00:32:33] I know what your goals are. Um, I know what it takes to, to hit New York Times if that’s your, your, you know, in focus for you. Uh, and I’m willing to do the work if it speaks to you, and I’ll fly to Maui and we’ll see if there’s synergy.” And yeah, the rest is kind of history. So, uh, so money, moxie, and service are three great ways to, uh, tap into a great network.

[00:32:52] Nathan: Well… Yeah, I wanna focus on this idea of- Well, the, the line specifically that, uh, Benjamin Graham said to Warren Buffett- Yeah. Warren’s like, “I’ll work for you for free,” and all that, and Benjamin Graham says, “You’re overpriced.”

[00:33:04] Jayson: That’s the line, yeah. Oh, you’re over. Good, good memory.

[00:33:07] Nathan: It’s in the book. Um, but and I just think that’s so important ’cause it was like how could free be overpriced?

[00:33:12] And so- Yeah … because you have to put in this work. And so pe- when someone says, like, “You know, Jason, I’ll help you with anything,” like, “What do you need?” And all that. The response that I wanna have is like, “First, I need you to use your eyes, and then I need you to use your brain.”

[00:33:22] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:23] Nathan: Like, look around. So in this case, if I was like, “Okay, Jason, I really wanna connect with you, and I wanna do it through service.

[00:33:27] Of these options that I’ve chosen, you know, I’m not going… I could apply for MMT, but, like, maybe I don’t have the money, and I don’t have the reputation. Like, I’m not gonna get past the curation process yet,” uh, and all of that. So it’s like, “Okay, what do you need?” So, so somebody might say, “Oh, I’ll volunteer at MMT.”

[00:33:43] And it’s like, well, there’s actually a lot of volunteers already. Like, that’s pretty well set. But if you use your eyes and you really look around, it’s like, okay, what does Jason need right now? Well, he’s coming out with a book, and so he needs to sell copies. He needs to get in front of the right rooms.

[00:33:55] There’s even, like, he needs reviews , you know, on Goodreads and Amazon and all of that. And so you’re like, “Okay, can I lead your street team?” Like a very specific thing. “Can I lead your street team for the book where I, my whole job, my KPI- You’re getting

[00:34:09] Jayson: me excited. I’m like, “Of, of course you can, Nathan.” Yeah,

[00:34:11] Nathan: exactly.

[00:34:11] Jayson: Please, this is gonna be great. Fantastic.

[00:34:13] Nathan: But my whole KPI would be like, “Okay, over the next, uh, 30 days, I’m gonna get you 250 reviews for the book.” Uh, and it’s like, “Yeah, of course.” Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s like, “Hey, I’m gonna need you to share this thing or, like, give me a- access to the buyers so I can email them individually or help them pre-write re- reviews or any of those things.”

[00:34:29] But, like, it’s a very specific thing to help with, and so many people are like, “Yeah, I have no i- I would love to do that, but I have no idea what.” It’s like if you spend a couple minutes looking, you can figure out what is this person trying to accomplish- 100% … and just come up with something really specific.

[00:34:41] Jayson: Yeah, I mean, the, the deepest way to invest in a relationship or start a relationship is to make people feel seen.

[00:34:45] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:46] Jayson: So if you’re able to, again, invest that time and be like, “What is most likely most important to this person right now?” Yeah. Uh, given that they’re busy and all that kind of stuff, reviews are a great example.

[00:34:57] Um, you know, if somebody came to me… Dude, I was- Yeah, you’re getting- I was, I was getting so excited as you were saying all that stuff. And I was like, “That’s so kind of you, Nathan.” Um-

[00:35:05] Nathan: I’ve, I’ve got the whole day cleared. We’re gonna, we’re gonna get some reviews.

[00:35:08] Jayson: Fantastic. But no, it’s, I think it’s, uh, if you’re young and don’t have access to capital and that kind of stuff, and there’s also an element, I, I don’t say I get challenged on this, but, like, I look back on my journey and I’ve had a lot of lucky breaks.

[00:35:21] Mm-hmm. The right relationships at the right time and that kind of stuff, and I feel almost a responsibility that, like, w- if somebody has, is young and, like, has energy and grit and is honest and, like- Wanna, wants to help from a genuine place, I will do everything I can to, like, make that happen, uh, and make it a win-win.

[00:35:43] Um, because I, I’ve had, I’ve been afforded those, those chances as well, which has brought me to where I am today. So I think service is overlooked- Yeah … ’cause it obviously requires effort and energy. Uh, but it’s still a fantastic way- Yeah … um, to just plug into incredible networks or build incredible relationships.

[00:36:00] Nathan: Okay, so we’ve talked a lot about relationships as a whole, how we’ve acquired them and all that.

[00:36:04] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:36:04] Nathan: But I wanna go to this, um, this illustration that you have in the book.

[00:36:07] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:08] Nathan: Um, tell me about this one, ’cause it’s much more about where the relationships… Like, what purpose do they serve? And ’cause it- it’s like I have lots of relationships, but, like, why does that matter?

[00:36:18] Jayson: Yeah, so the, the opening of the book, um, I talk about, we forge our first set of relationships based on proximity. Mm. The schools we go to, the companies we work for, the communities we belong to, the volleyball teams, and all that kind of stuff, and those are great. Um, but if you’re an ambitious individual, as you start to have these ambitions and goals, um, sometimes you’ll realize they’re not in alignment with the existing peer group you have.

[00:36:46] Um, that doesn’t necessarily mean you need to cut these relationships or any of that kind of stuff, but some of these relationships may carry as weight. I don’t know what your experience was leaning into entrepreneurship, but sometimes family members and that kind of stuff, there can be a lot of friction.

[00:37:00] Uh, and again, you don’t cut them off completely, but when you bring awareness to them, uh, you realize just how much they’re weighing you down.

[00:37:05] Nathan: Right.

[00:37:05] Jayson: Um, so the act of getting clear where you wanna go, and really what are you optimizing for, um, serves just as a really good, uh, a really good thing to kinda keep top of mind and- When th- looking at that through that lens, Jim Collins has a brilliant philosophy in his book Good to Great, that you want the right people on the bus, the wrong people off the bus, and the right people in the right seats.

[00:37:25] And I take the same lens when it comes to relationships. If my intention is to go here, who are the people I need on the bus? Who are the people I need off the bus? And who is gonna go in, in what seat effectively? Um, so, so yeah, that’s what this one is.

[00:37:38] Nathan: Do I think people always think about, okay, net new relationships-

[00:37:41] Jayson: Yeah

[00:37:41] Nathan: right? But this, this illustration is really like, oh, these other relationships that you’re bringing along might be not preventing you from getting there, but sure making it a lot harder.

[00:37:51] Jayson: Yeah. And, and, and listen, at the end of the day, you have finite energy and time- Mm-hmm … and bandwidth. And as a result, every relationship you say yes to here is keeping you from a relationship that can help you- Right

[00:38:04] to get to there. So I think there’s an opportunity cost that a lot of people are not aware of. Uh, and at least if you bring awareness to this, um, it just makes those… You can start making micro decisions, one could say. And it, again, it’s not, I think the mistake a lot of people make is like, oh, I have to have a hard conversation with this person or that person.

[00:38:23] As we talked about, a lot of relationship building is just how much energy you’re willing to invest into it. So if you’re going to be the person to bring people together for an event or a dinner or whatever the case may be, that’s quite a bit of energy that not a lot of people are willing to do. But if you are willing to invest that energy, amazing things can happen.

[00:38:39] When you bring awareness to s- like, some of those people that may be holding you back a little bit, you realize, like, oftentimes you’re carrying a lot of, you’re breathing a lot of energy into those relationships. And if you slowly start scaling back, those relationships will naturally go dormant effectively.

[00:38:55] Nathan: Well, I think the truth about relationships is that they all go dormant naturally.

[00:39:00] Jayson: Yes.

[00:39:00] Nathan: And that’s a double-edged sword, right? So if there’s a relationship that you don’t want to continue, you don’t have to sit down and be like, “Jason, we can’t be friends anymore.” Yeah. It’s like- Yeah,

[00:39:08] Jayson: yeah.

[00:39:09] Nathan: It’s just like, oh, if we just gradually, like more time between touchpoints and all that, like- Yeah

[00:39:13] it will naturally-

[00:39:14] Jayson: Correct …

[00:39:14] Nathan: drop off. But then the, the downside of that is that the, if there’s a relationship you really want, you have to- 100% … really put in the effort to maintain it. Yeah.

[00:39:23] Jayson: Dude, that’s brilliant as well. I should’ve included that in the book.

[00:39:26] Nathan: There’s plenty more podcasts for me to hear.

[00:39:28] Okay. This one I love because I have spent so much time in- Rooms and conversations, whether it’s a, early in my career at a, um, chamber of commerce business event- Mm-hmm … or that sort of thing where I’m like, “I don’t know, man. Someone told me I should network.” Yeah, yeah. This is the worst thing ever. Yeah.

[00:39:43] Tell me about this one illustration from the book.

[00:39:45] Jayson: Yeah, so the idea is, this is through the lens of entrepreneurs, um, but creators specifically, same thing. It is a isolating career path.

[00:39:54] Nathan: Right.

[00:39:54] Jayson: I think one of the things that makes it isolating, at least for entrepreneurs, is the scoreboard is very clear.

[00:39:58] It’s like capital raise, revenue, locations, head count- Yeah … all these things that we like to throw out there. So there’s always this, like, comparison. Mm. Uh, and the same thing with being a creator. Like, it’s like how many likes and views and comments do you get on, on threads and that kind of stuff. So as a result, this sense of isolation is, is very, very strong with those two career paths specifically.

[00:40:17] Um, and for me, uh, again, the premise of, like, you are rare unless you find yourself in the right room. So if you’re an entrepreneur on your second mountain, there are groups and organizations like MMT that would make you feel like you’re amongst companions on the path. They’re heavily kind of curated rooms.

[00:40:35] Um, if you’re a creator and you’re not going to Craft and Commerce, like, I don’t know if there’s any… Is there any other alternatives? There’s, I, there’s the event in Dubai, which I know you-

[00:40:45] Nathan: That’s a totally, we, we could get into… That’s a whole conversation about- But

[00:40:48] Jayson: the average- … completely agree, yeah … like, creator, there’s nothing else out there.

[00:40:50] Nathan: No, and it, yeah, that, like, not, like, that you can just- Yeah … buy a ticket to.

[00:40:54] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:40:55] Nathan: But is carefully, uh, selected for the right kind of people. Yeah. There, there’s not a lot, um, ’cause it, there’s a lot as, we’ll get into this in some other illustrations, like as you get into masterminds and- Yeah, yeah … that sort of thing.

[00:41:06] There, there are other events, but it’s-

[00:41:08] Jayson: So this is if you- … important

[00:41:09] Nathan: to

[00:41:09] Jayson: get- … you’re a creator alone. This is if you go to Craft and Commerce.

[00:41:12] Nathan: Exactly.

[00:41:12] Jayson: Great. Next

[00:41:13] Nathan: slide. Done. Sales pitch right there.

[00:41:17] Jayson: But it’s true, though. I mean, I’ve talked to people like Jay Clouse and, like, a slew of others that Craft and Commerce is this, like, almost annual pilgrimage- Mm-hmm

[00:41:26] of other creators where you are amongst, again, best practices will get shared naturally- Right … and all that kind of stuff, and you’ll leave with a great ROI. But just being amongst companions on the path is such a normalizing experience, and to me, a great- Indicator of like a worthwhile event or conference is if you leave, like, feeling energized.

[00:41:49] Mm-hmm. And, like, that would be the case. You know, I see people talk about Craft and Commerce. Yeah. And this is not to promote Craft and Commerce, uh, per se. I’m just like, if you’re a creator, you should go. Like, that’s the- Yeah … only place I know that you can buy access to like-minded peers. Mm-hmm. So yeah.

[00:42:05] Nathan: Yeah, and that was, you know, the reaction afterwards, that was something that was really special this year. And when we talk about events later, we’ll talk about the w- the momentum it takes to get there. But-

[00:42:13] Jayson: Yeah …

[00:42:15] Nathan: seeing… I actually went on LinkedIn and did a search for all the mentions of Craft and Commerce.

[00:42:19] Mm-hmm. Uh, I did it yesterday ’cause I was working for a presentation I’m giving on Monday, and it took a minute and a half of just straight scrolling to get through all of the recap posts that people had put just on LinkedIn. Mm. And you’re like… I mean, it, it was, it was insane, but it’s because exactly what you’re saying, people are leaving energized.

[00:42:35] Mm-hmm. So then as we talk about- Different types of communities. Mm-hmm. There’s a lot of different ones, from very broad to very narrow. I love that this illustration that you had here on the quality of relationships over time.

[00:42:47] Jayson: Yeah. So, um, not all environments are the same. Mm. Um, from a… Especially to drive, again, the quality of, of relationships.

[00:42:57] So I put in a bit of a hierarchy. And as we were kinda talking about offline, I’ve never heard anybody really define what is a conference- Mm … versus define what is a mastermind. Sometimes people label something a mastermind ’cause they can command a higher price point, but it’s really just a conference.

[00:43:11] Um- If I get

[00:43:12] Nathan: charged more than five grand, it’s a mastermind.

[00:43:13] Jayson: Exactly. 100%. Uh, and like communities, you know, are, hinge very much on curation. Mm-hmm. And community gets thrown around a lot. Yeah. There’s a lot that don’t necessarily just live within, uh, the one kind of category. Something that’s a conference may have some similarities to a mastermind, like MMT has, is, it’s community, but has like some mastermind-type components to it.

[00:43:34] Um, but ultimately, you know, a conference is where anybody can kinda sign up. It’s usually around an interest or what have you. So it’s a great place to meet some people with a similar interest, but there’s usually a couple hundred people there, couple thousand. Um, it’s, it’s a great way to get a lot of people in your aw- awareness, but there’s usually also not a lot of space to deepen relationships.

[00:43:55] It’s like usually session after session after session, so they’re not optimized for relationships. Workshops generally are much more intimate environment, and there’s this like feeling that you’re both, uh, or everybody’s committed to the same pa- kind of path or journey, which can be very kinda connective.

[00:44:10] Um, professional organizations would be something like an EO or a YPO for entrepreneurs. They’re great, uh, and they’re generally criteria-based. So for the entrepreneurs organization, your business has to do seven figures. For YPO, your business has to do eight figures. And again, you know, I think statistically 3% of general population are entrepreneurs, and th- uh, .4% of that 3% have businesses of seven figures.

[00:44:35] So to find yourself in an organization where it’s criteria-based, where the people you’re around- Right … are similar-sized businesses, uh, is a really unique opportunity. Um, and then above that you have masterminds. And again, this name, the, the label gets thrown around a lot. Uh, but at the end of the day- If it doesn’t tap into the collective wisdom of the group, then it’s not a mastermind.

[00:44:56] If it’s a guru at the front of the room-

[00:44:58] Nathan: Right …

[00:44:58] Jayson: it’s not a mastermind. Uh, and then communities are based on really shared values. Um, so for us at MMT, we have kinda core values at the forefront of our curation process. We have a pretty extensive curation process. Um, but that makes a really unique experience where, again, you f- truly feel like you’re amongst companions on the path at a f- probably similar stage of, of life and business, um, who again value the, the kinda same things.

[00:45:22] And in the book I talk about this funnel of, of relationships and how to kind of forge relationships quickly. And, uh, ultimately when somebody’s been vetted and you find yourself in a space like this, it’s a high trust space as well. Right. So you, these, in conversations here, conversations here tend to be like very surface level.

[00:45:40] Um, and then you’re trying to like weigh people out and all that kinda stuff. Uh, conversations here tend to go pretty vulnerable pretty quick. And relationships move at the speed of trust and vulnerability. So l- in an environment like a community, that is curated and it’s held with care. Person leading it ensuring that there’s no liabilities in the room and that kinda stuff, you can really condense decades of networking into a few short days.

[00:46:00] Nathan: Well, an example of that is, you know, I think about a, a, an early conference for me was one called New Media Expo. Mm-hmm. Uh, which was in Las Vegas. It w- um, I don’t know, 2013, 2014 or something like that. And I met a lot of people that I’ve been friends with for a long time later. But it’s these little sparks.

[00:46:15] Jayson: Yes.

[00:46:16] Nathan: And you’re exactly right. You’re not going deep, um, or any of that. Extreme contrast to that would be at, uh, Mastermind Talks this y- this last year, where there were two instances where I went from meeting someone, or I was talking, like talking to one friend there, and talking through like a struggle I had or whatever else, and they’re like, “Oh, you have to meet this other person.”

[00:46:38] And then like 10 minutes later we’re having like the deepest conversations about like marriage and relationships- Mm … and, you know, these things that really truly matter. And the shared values drive that. You know, there’s an immediate amount of trust ’cause it’s like, oh, okay, well if Jason has allowed them to come multiple years in a row or whatever, they must be incredible.

[00:46:57] Um, the level of expertise. And then just this idea of like, oh, we’re, we’re in similar places. It’s not- You know, if you’re like, “Okay, everyone here has built a really meaningful business. Everyone is doing work from a place of values.” And so the level… I, I mean, I guess in a, in a short way, I had conversations at MMT that in normal relationship would take years to get to the point where the, that level of authenticity and vulnerability could happen, and that to me is a community.

[00:47:26] Jayson: Yeah. Thank you for that. But whenever you put anything together like an event or- Yeah … you know, a community or what have you, it’s, it’s, it’s rare. Uh, it comes up, it bubbles to the surface every once in a while, but oftentimes you don’t get to hear some of those meaningful interactions. I always say, like, music is the space in between the notes, so sessions are great.

[00:47:45] Maybe you’ll get a great, you know, light bulb moment from hearing a speaker. Um, but usually the value can be found in like, you know, in the lobby or over dinner or those kind of things, and sometimes it’s, it’s hard to keep your finger on, like, those magical moments, so I appreciate you sharing that.

[00:47:59] Nathan: Yeah, for sure.

[00:48:00] So we’ve spent a lot of time talking about how to be intentional and curating relationships and getting in the right room and all of that, but something that you and I have both experienced is at a certain point in your career, a lot of these opportunities just come to you.

[00:48:11] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:12] Nathan: And I think people feel jealous of that or like, “Oh, I’m not at that point.”

[00:48:16] But this next illustration that you have is really about great work attracting those people. And so what kind of way… And it’s easy to say like, “Oh, great work will attract opportunities,” but how do you actually bring that to life?

[00:48:29] Jayson: This was based on a, a quote by Naval Ravikant where he says like, “Forget networking.

[00:48:34] Do great work and your network will kinda find you.” Mm. And I think it’s a good frame to just offset what we’ve been talking about, which is a lot of like actively trying to find relationships, bring people into your world. There is an element of like you should pursue a craft and be world-class, um, and really commit to that.

[00:48:54] Because there… No matter how you slice it, there’s something called the social exchange theory where, uh, we naturally, consciously or unconsciously, wanna surround ourselves with people who are assets, uh, who can advance us, whether it’s, you know, our businesses, our careers, um, even just like advance us, uh, relationally and, and those kinda things.

[00:49:14] So, uh, as a result, it also makes my life a lot easier when I have a peer group of people that are world-class in different domains ’cause I can easily connect them to each other and that kinda stuff. So I think there is this element of, um, yes, you can be the person, if you go wave a magic wand, that brings all these great people together, or you can even buy access to find yourself in the right room.

[00:49:33] Uh, but the quality of your work and what you’re known for is what keeps you in that room. Um, so I do, uh, I, I mean, for, for me, in theory, the last 14 years, I’ve pretty much committed my life to building community. And like that is very much like my space, and when friends reach out to me, it’s usually on that topic.

[00:49:52] Um, so yeah, that’s what this was designed to illustrate.

[00:49:55] Nathan: Yeah, and I think it’s, you know, this idea of swimming upstream, like every… I think a lot in terms of conversion rates.

[00:50:01] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:02] Nathan: You know, it’s like, okay, how do we get attention with an idea? And the better the idea is, the more attention it’ll get. And then how do we go from that attention to, um, you know, whether it’s watching a video, and then from watching the video to an email list, and then maybe ultimately buying a product or, or whatever else.

[00:50:16] And I think about what are these leverage points that gra- that will increase your conversion rate all the way along. And so if you think about, um, like Andrew Wilkinson’s example- Mm … of Moxie and like he’ll reach out to anyone and all of that.

[00:50:29] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:50:30] Nathan: And if he has a one in a thousand hit rate of that working, you’re like, “Ooh, that’s a pretty rough thing.”

[00:50:36] It’s like, okay, but what would have to be true for Andrew to get to a one in 100 hit rate? Because that now all of a sudden, it’s hard, but it’s worth it. And then what would get us to a one in 10 hit rate? ‘Cause then it’s like, well, I should be spending every morning sending out 10 emails or that sort of thing.

[00:50:53] Like that, that’s worth it. And doing great work is that thing that elevates everything else that you do

[00:51:00] Jayson: Dude, I should’ve wrote this in the book. That’s a great fr- it’s a brilliant frame because, again, Andrew still does these cold outreaches- Right … to this day, but his hit rate- … given who he is now, it’s like every outreach gets a response, right?

[00:51:12] Right. Which is…

[00:51:13] Nathan: And if- the response might be, I mean, it, it… Like, if I were to host this Author Mastermind 10 years ago- Mm … and I were to do it by myself, right? I might be at a 1 in 10 response rate.

[00:51:23] Jayson: Mm.

[00:51:24] Nathan: Let alone who actually shows up. I

[00:51:25] Jayson: would still go, Nathan.

[00:51:27] Nathan: I appreciate that. Right? But now with where I’m at, the relationships- Yeah

[00:51:31] the room we can curate and all of that, we have 100% response rate, and if people say they can’t come, 9 times out of 10 it’s because I have a keynote speech that I’m being paid $50,000 to give- Yeah … on that same day. Otherwise, I would be there.

[00:51:45] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:51:45] Nathan: And so I just don’t think that people obsess over doing great work enough- Yeah

[00:51:49] because it’s the The conversion rate increases your cost of everything that you do.

[00:51:54] Jayson: Yeah, and I, I, I share a couple stories in the book, um, of people doing great work and then found the spotlight and then blew up. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause nothing’s worse than… I have so m- so many friends that are working on their personal brands.

[00:52:07] Mm. And they’re like, “Oh, if I only just got on Diary of the CEO.” And I’m like, “You don’t wanna go on Diary of the CEO. You are not ready.” Yep. Have you seen James Clear interview on the Diary of CEO? It is so tight. Yeah. I watched that interview and just in m- marvel of, like, how clear of a communicator he is, or Vanessa Van Edwards, another mutual friend.

[00:52:25] Like-

[00:52:25] Nathan: Va- Vanessa told me that she did 70 hours of prep for her Diary of a CEO episode.

[00:52:29] Jayson: And she’s already world-class. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I w- I’d call on that st- thank you for allowing me to be on your show. Uh, but, like, I’m not ready for that. Like, I know that. Like, I’m probably five years away of, like, h- a lot of this hard work, um, before I’m ready for, you know, the larger stage.

[00:52:46] Um, and I just, I think people want it too quickly. Mm. Um, and again, through the lens of relationships. The whole Andrew Wilkinson story is again a great example. The reason why Bill Ackman took interest in Andrew is ’cause he found him fascinating. The reason Andrew was able to build a relationship with Charlie Munger, who is Warren Buffett’s right hand, and Charlie was actually asking Andrew questions about, like, online businesses, it because he is, like, world-class at, like, online businesses.

[00:53:12] So I do think that there is this element of, like, you need to be known for something. Mm. Uh, there was that saying in, in business, you’re known for something or you’re known for, or remembered for nothing or what have you. Mm. Um, so I think, um, yeah, it’s just really, really important and I th- I never thought about it from a hit rate perspective, but you’re, you’re so, so right.

[00:53:29] Nathan: Well, and I think it’s, like, really putting in the work and the reps and doing it in a practiced way.

[00:53:35] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:36] Nathan: So two people that have really stood out to me that kinda started their online businesses at the same time, um, are Cody Sanchez and Nick Huber.

[00:53:44] Jayson: Mm.

[00:53:45] Nathan: And so really around this 2019, 2020, 2021 is when they started to take content really seriously.

[00:53:53] And, um, I actually met Nick at, um, Cody’s conference that we were both speaking at. And spending more time with him I realized, like, oh, they, they are so polished on camera. And I made a comment to Nick about it and he was like, “You just have to put in the reps.” And we were at a, uh, like kind of a little mastermind event in, in Cabo driving a golf cart and he’s like, uh, and he’s just talking about you gotta put in the reps, you gotta do this.

[00:54:15] And I was like, “Okay, but how do you do that?” And he pulls the golf cart over, grabs his phone, and goes, “Okay, I’m here with Nathan Barry. Nathan, what is your number one piece of advice on hiring? Go.” Mm-hmm. And I was like, “Uh, uh, uh,” and he just goes, “Yeah, do more of that and you’ll be good.”

[00:54:28] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:54:28] Nathan: And then I had a conversation with Ramit Sethi a couple weeks ago ’cause I’m working on a book launch as well, and he’s like, “Yeah, if you wanna talk book launch advice and, and everything.”

[00:54:37] And you know, I’m, I’m happy to chat. And so talking to him and he said, you know… I was asking him about, like, how do I craft the right pitch to go on a podcast ’cause I have all these relationships but I don’t wanna ask for something, you know, and all this stuff. And he’s like- That’s not the thing to focus on.

[00:54:51] Mm-hmm. He’s like, “You’re not good on camera yet.” What you need to do is you need to focus on media training, and you need to put in all those reps ’cause you’re gonna put in… Most people are gonna put in 90% of the effort to be like, “Okay, how do I get on Ritual or Diary of a CEO or some of these other things?”

[00:55:05] And then 10% on actual delivery, and he’s like, that, like invert that completely.

[00:55:10] Jayson: That’s a good friend.

[00:55:10] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. He’s a very good friend. Who else knows you directly?

[00:55:12] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:55:13] Nathan: And so that’s the thing that I’ve been thinking about of like, okay, how do I keep doing great work? ‘Cause then people will see. They’ll be like, “Oh, when Nathan goes on these shows, it’s one of the highest view counts that we had,” or, “The retention is really good”- 100%

[00:55:26] or, “I love the interview,” or something like that. And you’re like, okay, I’m focused way too much on the outcome and the things that are not within my control, and not nearly enough on the great work, which is entirely within my control.

[00:55:40] Jayson: And the beautiful thing is, um, I mean, you only have one chance at bat, like, on those larger platforms.

[00:55:45] Um, and if you’re good, and you hit it out of the park like Vanessa did, like, you’re- Right … they want you back. Like, she- Right. She’s been three

[00:55:51] Nathan: times …

[00:55:51] Jayson: I think she has… Yeah, and she has, like, one of the top 10 fastest growing, like, episodes or- Yeah … top five fastest- Oh, yeah … growing episodes on Diary of a CEO ’cause, like, it’s so well done.

[00:56:00] Such a huge fan of hers. Um, yeah, no, I mean, I, I think I, I, again, people try to, to, to jump ahead too quickly, and, uh, I think it is, it is very much a mistake.

[00:56:09] Nathan: Hey, so you may know me as the host of this podcast, but I’m also the founder and CEO of Kit, an email marketing platform for creators. I built Kit because I needed a better way to grow my audience and sell books and courses through email.

[00:56:22] Kit helps you build an audience that you own and will create automations that keep working for you so that you can focus on creating. As a listener of this show, you can get an exclusive 10% off Kit Pro if you go to kit.com/nathan. Okay, but then this last idea that I wanna talk through is the idea of how doing great work isn’t enough.

[00:56:39] Jayson: Yeah, so there’s a fantastic principle, uh, called increasing your surface area of luck. It was initially coined by, uh, Jason Roberts, who’s a, I believe a developer. This is probably 15 years ago, and there’s been a couple people, Sahil Bloom, one of them, that has really popularized it as of late. And the idea is if you wanna increase your surface area of luck, you wanna do great work, and you wanna tell people about it.

[00:57:04] There’s a lot of people that do great work and don’t tell people about it. I’m guilty of that. Uh, there’s people that don’t do great work and talk a lot. We all know those kind of people. And the sweet spot is, again, doing great work and talking about it. The one thing I think that principle misses is the importance of deep relationships- Mm

[00:57:24] ’cause you… It does… I always say it doesn’t matter how many friends you can count, it matters how many friends you can count on, and I much rather have 500 deep relationships, people who have my back, than, you know, 50,000 followers on Instagram or what have you. Um, so that is why I redesigned the surface area of luck to have basically do great work, let others know, uh, and in- invest in deep relationships, and then as a result- Mm-hmm

[00:57:48] your lu- luck multiplies.

[00:57:49] Nathan: Well, I think it’s such an important idea because it’s not just about- “Oh, he got lucky.” Well, of course, Jason happened to be at this event, you know, and then that was where he met this person and it went on from there, right? Um, it’s all of these things that increase your service area for luck.

[00:58:07] Mm-hmm. And then it’s like, yeah, I actually get lucky quite often because there’s so many opportunities for that to happen.

[00:58:13] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:58:13] Nathan: But the depth is so interesting because I feel like that’s what most communities are missing, is they’re like, “Okay, we got really high, uh, high profile, very successful people and, you know, we put them in the room together and we curated the room.

[00:58:28] But then they don’t go and actually create the environment where you can share. And so it’s like the questions that you, you might ask in one of those rooms is like, “Hey, what’s, what’s worked best for growth for you in the last year?” You know? And then you’re like, “Business growth?” “Yeah, yeah. Business growth.”

[00:58:43] And they’re like, “Oh, well, this one thing that we did in- increased our revenue growth by 10%,” or something like that. And when you really go to the depth, then, you know, you’re like, hey, you wouldn’t lead with this question, but like, you know, what are you struggling with as an entrepreneur?

[00:58:57] Jayson: Yeah.

[00:58:58] Nathan: You know? And, and building these relationships.

[00:59:01] And so I think about MMT and the depth that comes from it. You can just dive deep into these conversations. Like, um, when Ben Greenfield came over to my house, you know, we’re talking about parenting and rituals within our families and how we wanna show up and what we struggle with and all of these things, and it’s because the container that we met in and the types of people that we like, it- that just became entirely natural.

[00:59:27] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:27] Nathan: And so I love the, the approach just on, not just on depth in relationships, but also in the style of how you go about it.

[00:59:33] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:34] Nathan: One thing that I’m so curious about is how do you systematically create that depth?

[00:59:38] Jayson: I guess what plays on this is something I stumbled across, I think it was actually initially from Jay Papasan, who I know- Yeah

[00:59:46] has been a guest on your- Yeah … your podcast. And this was probably back in 2017 or so. He was sending out these, this email newsletter to friends. Mm-hmm. Um, it was just, like, a little insight as far as what was going on in his world, like personally and professionally, stuff that he wouldn’t put on social media.

[01:00:05] And I had done a similar type email for the last couple years, and, uh, a couple things really reaffirmed the value of this exercise. First, well, maybe five years ago, five, six years ago, I started investing in companies. I used to put that on my LinkedIn. That was a mistake. Then I just started getting a bunch of pitches.

[01:00:25] Yeah. And also, investing is romantic until you realize, like, oh, I’m now, like, on your, unofficially, like, not on your payroll, but working for you- Right. Yeah, exactly … to, like, make more introductions. You

[01:00:34] Nathan: paid me and you now work for me.

[01:00:35] Jayson: Exactly. Make more introductions and all that kind of… So I don’t invest anymore.

[01:00:38] Yeah. But one of the things I, I enjoyed about the investing process was, like, the monthly or quarterly emails I’d get from founders as far as, like, updates as far as what was going on in their business. Because on some level I could feel like I had, um, insight as far as what was going on and maybe ways I could potentially support them.

[01:00:54] I was just emotionally invested- Yeah … in these updates. And- I thought about it that I have so many people who have invested in me, not necessarily financially, but have their fingerprints on my journey, and I’m not providing them any kind of updates. So as a result, I started getting much more religious with these, like, these, uh, what I call friends-only updates.

[01:01:14] And there’s a handful of friends of ours that have something similar. Nick Gray, we were talking about. Um, he has a brilliant one. It’s just so, so creative and so engaging. Uh, Andrew Wilkinson, who we’ve mentioned a few times, has one as well that’s kind of public. Uh, you have one in your own form, which is an annual update-

[01:01:29] Nathan: Yeah

[01:01:30] Jayson: which I’ve read every year except for this year because-

[01:01:33] Nathan: Oh, I didn’t write one this

[01:01:34] Jayson: year. Shame on you. I don’t know what’s going on in your world, and I can’t, as a result, make introductions and increase- Right … your luck. ‘

[01:01:41] Nathan: Cause you don’t, for, for the first time-

[01:01:43] Jayson: Yeah …

[01:01:43] Nathan: uh, in a decade, you don’t have a list from me of what my goals are for the year.

[01:01:48] Jayson: I don’t know what your goals are. I don’t know- … well, yeah, what your focus is. I don’t know what some of your- Yeah … your challenges are. And so I’ve, I’ve religiously, that’s a lie. Because they can be a lot of work, uh, I don’t get them out as, as often as I want to. Mm-hmm. But when I do, the value is incredible.

[01:02:06] Example, in 2020, our business went down to zero. Yeah. Um, we’re in the events business. W- all of our product SKU is one thing. It’s a live experience. Terrible industry to be in in 2020. We were about to lose our house. Mm-hmm. And I sent out an email to these people on my friends-only list saying, “Hey, I’m looking for…”

[01:02:27] So I, it’s always an update, and then because I have a hard time asking, the forcing function is, like, I have to include one clear ask in every email. And the ask in this email was, um, “I’m looking for creative financing solutions for our home ’cause we have a farm, it’s hard to get mortgages for. My business is zero, I’m broke now.”

[01:02:46] Yeah. Um, “We’re about to lose our, our house.” And I had a handful of m- people reach out, say, “Look, I’ll lend you the money,” all that kind of stuff, and then somebody reached out and said, “Hey, have you ever thought of selling lifetime memberships for MMT?” And I was like, “No, I’m not gonna sell… That’s nuts.

[01:02:59] Nobody’s gonna buy a lifetime membership for MMT.” But then it gave me the idea of like, well, maybe I can sell one, three, and five-year credits for MMT. And as a result, I sent out an email to our membership. We brought in, like, half a million dollars within a day, uh, with- or within two days, and ultimately, that saved the business.

[01:03:17] Mm-hmm. Uh, and has led to, like, seven figures, ’cause we’ve used that same model every year. There’s some people, uh, like Noom in the community, has nine years of MMT. Nine years. Every time he has an office, he’s buying, buying more credits. I’m like, I, I, yeah, I hope I’m still alive in nine years to deliver on these.

[01:03:31] Um, so but that one email led to so much stuff like that, so every time I send out these emails, it increases that surface area of luck. Mm-hmm. People know what’s in focus for me, know what’s a priority, can open doors that I never kinda could’ve predicted. So that’s the actual tangible way that I increase, uh, that surface area.

[01:03:50] Nathan: Quick random question.

[01:03:51] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:03:51] Nathan: First, I’ve seen so many people do that.

[01:03:53] Jayson: And I use Kit to se- I do.

[01:03:55] Nathan: Yeah?

[01:03:55] Jayson: I do. It’s ama- I mean, look at, you should look at my open rates. I actually refrain from sending, uh, trying to send any other emails b- ’cause my open rates for those friends-only emails is, like, 85%. Insane,

[01:04:05] Nathan: yeah.

[01:04:06] Jayson: Uh, yeah, so.

[01:04:07] Nathan: I think it’s such a great, great tactic because it’s the, I just wanna hear from my friends when their guard is down and there’s no polish.

[01:04:14] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:14] Nathan: If we were sitting down and having coffee-

[01:04:16] Jayson: Yeah …

[01:04:16] Nathan: and I was like, “Hey, man, how’s life?” That answer, that’s what you put in the friends only update. And because it’s not going out to tens of thousands of people and whatever, like you can do that.

[01:04:25] Jayson: And one of the things I’ll just share that shows this tangible value from a relationship that’s at scale perspective is every one I do, I record a video to accompany it. If anybody wants to like hear my voice instead of read the email. Yeah. And I’m shocked how many people watch a video. Sometimes it’s an hour long.

[01:04:40] They watch it from beginning to end. And there was, uh, one I sent out recently where the video, and this is a small group of people I send it to, had 200 hours of watch time. And I was like, that has saved me 200 hours of updating people- Yeah … what’s going on in my world. So although it’s a lot of work to craft this email, it’s, it’s hugely valuable from a leverage perspective.

[01:04:59] And the one thing I’ll just throw in there really quickly, ’cause a lot of people are like, “Well, who do I put on the email?” Um, I, as a rule, I only email people, um, that I feel like if they were to receive my email, they’d be excited-

[01:05:11] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[01:05:11] Jayson: when it lands in their inbox. I still give them the option to unsubscribe, and I encourage them.

[01:05:15] I’m like, “If you feel like this is noise, like there’s a lot going on in your inbox anyways, I will not take offense.” Yeah. The amount of people who’ve unsubscribed in the last like six years, I can count on one hand. So that is the layer or the filter of like who gets included in the email. Uh, and then on the backside, it’s, it’s, it’s a two-parter.

[01:05:32] If they were to reply to the email, I don’t feel dread that I have to like- Right … oh gosh, now I have to answer to this. Because we have those- Yeah … sometimes too, right? So that is, as long as they pass both of those filters, then they’re included in the email.

[01:05:43] Nathan: I love that you have all these filters on curation.

[01:05:46] It’s so important. And they’re always simple.

[01:05:47] Jayson: Yeah. Super simple, yeah.

[01:05:49] Nathan: But, but they’re really meaningful.

[01:05:50] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:05:50] Nathan: Very tactical question. Hmm. If you were in this position of being slightly more than halfway through a year and you feel, feel guilt about like not writing the update, ’cause I actually, I have written that update every year in a row for 13 years- Yeah

[01:06:02] except for-

[01:06:02] Jayson: 13 years?

[01:06:03] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:06:04] Jayson: Dude, wow.

[01:06:04] Nathan: And maybe more. No, it’s probably, 2011, so for 15 years. Yeah. Except for 2025.

[01:06:10] Jayson: So you’re the originator of this.

[01:06:11] Nathan: I, I… Well, I got it from Chris Guillebeau.

[01:06:13] Jayson: Oh, really? Wow.

[01:06:15] Nathan: Um, I learned, I’ve learned so much from that man. And I always say that I write it for myself. And so I actually have one that’s halfway written.

[01:06:20] Mm-hmm. I’ve just, at this point, like I, I ran out of time around the holidays and all that, so I didn’t actually-

[01:06:24] Jayson: Yeah …

[01:06:25] Nathan: finish it and publish it. ‘Cause it is a lot of time, and I like put in all the photos and all the stuff.

[01:06:29] Jayson: Yeah, yeah.

[01:06:29] Nathan: Um, but now I just feel like, oh, it’d be super weird to put out a 2025 annual review on August ’26.

[01:06:37] Jayson: 20- Yeah, exactly. 2025.5. Uh- Yeah, I don’t know. There’s also the element that you don’t wanna break the chain. Doing this for 15 years-

[01:06:45] Nathan: Right …

[01:06:45] Jayson: is, uh-

[01:06:46] Nathan: So yeah, which is worse- You don’t wanna gap … the awkwardness? And, and yeah, the, the gap would be way worse than the awkwardness. So I gotta, I gotta buckle down.

[01:06:52] Jayson: Dude, I’d be so ha- If you just sent, like, a quick email of like, “Hey, I messed up. Jason called me out on my podcast.” “Here’s the half-written version,” I’d be, I’d be the first one to reply and be like, “Good on you, Nathan. It’s great to, to see what was, you know- Oh, I get it … year 2025.”

[01:07:05] Nathan: Yep. I will, I will

[01:07:06] Jayson: do that.

[01:07:07] That’s powerful. That’s really power- W- w- the w- No matter the way you do it- Mm-hmm … whether it’s annual updates, if you don’t have, uh, something like a trigger-

[01:07:13] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[01:07:13] Jayson: uh, like, oh, it’s a turn of a new year, it can sometimes easy, be easy to, like, push it back and push it back and push it back. So the idea of doing it annually at a minimum I think is fantastic.

[01:07:22] Nathan: I also know someone, speaking of triggers, who does it quarterly.

[01:07:26] Jayson: Hmm.

[01:07:26] Nathan: And he just has, like, he just has a 90-minute block once a quarter, and whatever he writes out, he just hits send at the end of 90 minutes.

[01:07:36] Jayson: Hmm.

[01:07:37] Nathan: And because it can grow, you know, I might spend- Oh,

[01:07:39] Jayson: 100% …

[01:07:39] Nathan: 10 hours writing an annual review post- Yeah

[01:07:42] then formatting it in WordPress. Yeah. You know, which photos do I wanna include, what … You know, and all of that. And so it can just grow and grow. And so he was like, “No, it’s… If I’m having coffee and catching up with a friend, it’s probably for 90 minutes. And so I’m doing that at scale. And, like, did I tell the update of what’s going on with my kids to Jason the most perfect way?

[01:08:01] No, I told him the version that fit within the time that we had.”

[01:08:03] Jayson: Yeah. Done is definitely better than perfect. And I’m sharing this vulnerably that, like, I struggle with perfection as well, and I don’t do it at the level of, of cadence I should. Um, but potentially embracing that 90-minute frame, I actually really like that.

[01:08:17] Nathan: Yeah. So the last thing that I wanna go to that might be the most important for, for our audience is this idea of the difference between, like, a fan base and a community.

[01:08:26] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:27] Nathan: Because I think so many people listening will have tens of thousands of followers, and they’re like, “Oh, I have this great community,” or if I were to host an event or whatever else, like, lots of people would, would come.

[01:08:38] We’ve sold things out. And everyone is there because of that one person.

[01:08:43] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:44] Nathan: And what you’ve done with MMT is you’ve made something that, like, you created the whole thing. You curated the group and all of that, but- The magic continues even when you’re not in the room. Mm-hmm. It’s not like, oh, we’re all huge fans of Tim Ferriss, and so if he doesn’t show up, we’re devastated.

[01:09:02] We’d be devastated if you didn’t show up to MMT, just to be clear. But, like, it’s so much more about the community. And so I’m curious, what advice would you give to someone who’s like, “I don’t just want fans of me, I want all the… I wanna bring people together to really connect”?

[01:09:17] Jayson: And this would be through the lens of in person?

[01:09:19] Nathan: In person or online, and maybe it’s different answers.

[01:09:23] Jayson: Yeah. I mean, for me, and I obviously would appreciate you chiming in here ’cause this is, you have experience and expertise in this arena as well, um, I do think there’s nothing that compares to in person. Um, I mean, that’s just a matter of fact. Uh, to have people in a room is just such a, a gift, especially if they’re disconnected and are on their phones and that kind of stuff.

[01:09:42] It’s such a rarity where they’re not, like, getting hit with different responsibilities and, and emails and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, the, the whole shift of Not being focused on the individual and more about the community. I mean, there’s a couple things that, that I try to consciously do.

[01:09:59] Like, I see myself almost, like, as the bouncer in front of the club. Yeah. Ensuring I have the right people in the room. So for us at MMT, there’s three levels to our curation process. There’s demographics, value graphics, which are our core values, uh, and then synergy. And one of the most important things that I realized many years ago is how you run a community of 150 people is exactly how you run a company of the same size.

[01:10:20] Uh, so the importance of keeping, like, core values at the forefront of your curation process, and then people who are in the community, coach them up or coach them out based on those core values. It’s a distinction I often share, and people are like, “Oh, yeah, that sounds…” No, like, it’s, it’s so valuable. Like, just do that and you’ll have an amazing community.

[01:10:36] Right. I draw so much inspira- The most inspiration I draw as far as how to make a better community environment is all through hiring best practices and culture. You gave me an idea years ago which eventually, eventually became our MM3s. Mm. Which are one of the most highest rated things, uh, our community does in between our live events, which is a, a thing that you, uh, instituted at, at Kit.

[01:10:57] Can you tell?

[01:10:57] Nathan: Yeah. The idea of… We call them subs.

[01:10:59] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:11:00] Nathan: And it was just a conversation. This is a Slack bot that we have.

[01:11:04] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:11:04] Nathan: That every week it goes and grabs three people at random and says, uh, “You should all have a 30-minute call this week.” Yeah. And, uh, it picks one of you to be in charge to pick the time and to make sure that conversation actually happens.

[01:11:18] And it will… We go back and forth, but it’ll often give a, uh, conversation starter as well.

[01:11:24] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:11:24] Nathan: And basically, the idea is that the two of us together are going to have one type of conversation. We might pick up one from, uh, six months ago, or, you know, it might be about the work overlap that we have or whatever.

[01:11:36] But if you add in a third person, it’s a totally different dynamic.

[01:11:38] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:39] Nathan: And you can basically have unlimited combinations of three people, and that has built such deep community and relationships within our company that when, when people show up for, um, our Team Retreats, which I’m here in Toronto right now for, for our Team Retreat that’s kicking off tomorrow.

[01:11:55] There’s, like, real depth and meaning, and they’re not like, “Hi,” you know, “My name’s John, I work in engineering. Who are you?” You know, they’ve, they’ve had all this community and interaction, and it matters so much.

[01:12:05] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:12:06] Nathan: So you did that with MM3s.

[01:12:08] Jayson: Yeah, so we integrated that in MMT, and then, and people love it.

[01:12:10] We just pair three members together virtually. Uh, we get them to fill out an intake form in advance so we understand what their focus is- Yeah … so maybe we can make pairings. ‘Cause what people love most about our MMT live experiences oftentimes is the assigned seating. Mm-hmm. And the curiosity that they have- Yeah

[01:12:23] of like, “Oh, why am I seated next to this person?” So we just took that idea and brought it kinda digitally. I share this because- Again, there’s so much inspiration you can draw from like culture best practices in business that you can bring into the community space, because there’s not a lot of good resources- Right

[01:12:40] on how to build community, how to get the right people in the door, how to kick people out. It’s, it- but again, it’s very much just culture principles. And then for me, like, I see my role, again, as that curator, uh, and the protector of the community. So if we have to kick people out, which happens, um, you know, I, I, I’m the bad guy in that, in that case.

[01:12:58] And then when it comes to our live experiences and that kind of stuff, I think one of the most important roles I have is to set the container on the morning of day one. Mm. Um, so like, why are we all here? What are the, the rules of engagement? All that kind of stuff, and do it in a much better, like, storytelling type way.

[01:13:16] You don’t want it to be kinda dry. Um, but getting people to fly in formation early- Mm … is great, and then I can kinda get out of the way. And then we design our live experience so that there is a lot of space for people to kinda connect outside sessions and, and those kind of things. But, um, yeah, I mean, my area of experience or expertise is very much community-building, kinda like in person.

[01:13:36] Uh, I always am in awe and marvel those who build communities like online and have active, uh, you know, communities on Circle and that kind of stuff. Um, so yeah. Is there anything you could chime in there? Especially I guess on the, maybe the digital side.

[01:13:51] Nathan: Well, I’m thinking about, since you brought up the idea of, um, you know, these, these triads of, like, bringing three people together.

[01:13:59] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:14:00] Nathan: It’s something that I don’t think enough online communities do.

[01:14:03] Jayson: Mm.

[01:14:03] Nathan: Because really, any… It, it scales. It doesn’t require you as the host. Uh, ’cause you could, you could fully automate it. Yeah. You could, you, or you could go fully curate. Like, you could decide any of those things. There’s a, there’s a, a fun in the, like, I don’t know, this is the random group- Yeah

[01:14:20] you know, in the company. It’s like, all right, we’ve got our accountant, we’ve got our, you know, uh, COO, or you know, like, and, and then we’ve got our head of brand, and they all… All right. What, what do they end up talking about? Um, or there’s also the magic of like, no, I, I think that you three would have a great conversation.

[01:14:37] Yeah. But I don’t think communities do that enough. Like, I think about- You know, the, these online communities like, um, Jay Clouse’s The Lab, you know, that would be such a good fit, and maybe they’ve done something similar. Yeah. Right? To continue that. ‘Cause all of these online communities, the thing they struggle with is, how do I get continued engagement that’s not just about the training or about the host?

[01:15:00] Jayson: Yeah. And he’s a great example of somebody who is trying to bridge that gap, and now investing quite heavily, uh, on, like, in-person experiences. And there’s a learning curve to that, but he’s doing, you know, obviously a, a great job. But there’s that saying that people come for content, but they stay for community.

[01:15:15] And, like, that is oftentimes, like, the deciding factor, um, when it comes up for, like, renewal and that kind of stuff. And if you could do a good job of making those connections, whether it’s activities like that. At MMT, we have a session every other month where we bring our members together and I facilitate two breakouts- Mm

[01:15:31] which is an opportunity for them to deepen ex- existing relationships and connect with new members. Um, I also try to do a good job spotlighting the genius in the community. Yeah. Uh, because there is so much, you know, genius effectively. Um, so things like that are, go a really long way.

[01:15:47] Nathan: On the idea of, like, maintaining this engagement and, and not just being about the content, um, I think, like, the ask, give, praise model- Yeah

[01:15:54] of MMT is really powerful.

[01:15:56] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:15:56] Nathan: Can you talk about how that works?

[01:15:58] Jayson: Yeah. So I, um, I stole some of this, uh, from an event I went to in 2011- Oh … um, that Tim Ferriss put on, and theirs was ask and give. And, uh, Tim came up with this Frame because he saw a lot of… This, our community for that group lived on Facebook.

[01:16:18] And, um, they can be filled with… People don’t know what to post, so th- or there’s no rules, no clear rules. So people will be like, “Oh, I just did a new blog post.” And, like, well, then if you did a blog post, well, I’ll talk about my- Yeah, me too. Yeah … Here’s a tweet I did or whatever the case may be. Yeah. And then it just becomes- Here’s my

[01:16:33] Nathan: Amazon affiliate link.

[01:16:33] Jayson: Exactly. It’s like- And there’s just a lot of, lot of noise and very little signal. And what Tim framed for that group was everything has to fall under an ask or a give. Mm-hmm. Uh, so you’re either asking for something or you’re giving something, nothing else. And I think-

[01:16:46] Nathan: That is really clear ’cause then it’s not like, “Oh, I’m telling you about this great resource, and if you really like that, you should buy this product- Yeah

[01:16:54] from my company.”

[01:16:55] Jayson: And be like- Well, sometimes people get a little creative and they’re like, “Well, I would love to give my blog post to everybody.” So sometimes n- moderation is required. But ask and give, uh, I think, which, it, it’s a very relatively clear set of guardrails. Mm-hmm. Without, like, micromanaging every single post and creating almost like this…

[01:17:11] Sometimes you almost create this uncertainty. ‘Cause we do have members reach out sometimes. They’re like, “Hey, does this fall under an ask or a give?” Um, but to me, what I’ve seen the last 15 years, it, it serves really well. Yep. And the one thing we added on top of that is praise. Mm-hmm. And that really im- reinforces the value of the community.

[01:17:28] Um, so that’s when a, a member has an interaction with a fellow member that they wanna spotlight. And so oftentimes we’ll see somebody make an ask of like, hey, you know, we got one this morning of like, “I need a litigation lawyer for a- Right … bad business partnership.” Within three, four minutes there was like four or five suggestions.

[01:17:45] I guarantee there’s like, that’s probably dealt with now. Um, as far as that person being on their path, I would not be surprised in two weeks time they’ll close the loop and say- With praise … “Yeah, I thank you for the connection. I got it all solved,” or whatever the case may be. So the praises are just a great way.

[01:18:00] Also from a community building perspective, the storytelling is so rich. Like, I, we have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of praises over the years that we can point to of like how the community has paid off significantly for people. Right. So everything falls within ask, give, praise, and we also integrate that as best we can at our live experiences.

[01:18:19] Uh, so we use praise cards, which is a really cool activity that we do. Um, and, uh, and that kind of stuff. So that’s been our model.

[01:18:26] Nathan: There’s a couple things I love about that model, but particularly the praise portion of it.

[01:18:31] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:18:31] Nathan: Um, one is at the live events, it gives you this moment of reflection a few times throughout the event.

[01:18:38] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:39] Nathan: And it, if you think about- You know, like value is a nebulous thing. Was it valuable for me to come to this conference or whatever? Yeah, and then by flipping through my notebook later, like what were my takeaways? Was it worth the ticket price or the… Or more, more so the ticket price, the, was it worth- Time

[01:18:54] three days- Yeah … or, you know, four days to- Big investment … be here. But you’re basically solidifying these, the, like the value that I got over time. And like writing it, we’re writing it on a card. Mm-hmm. But we’re also writing it on our subconscious simultaneously. And then the second thing that I think it does is it reinforces the idea of the value of the network.

[01:19:15] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:15] Nathan: Again, if you, if you think about the model of, I don’t know, if, if there’s an event, let’s say like an Alex Hormozi, someone like that, right? Where if you go to a workshop that he’s putting on, you’re here to learn from him. Did he answer your question? Yes. I’m sure that if it’s an expensive event, there’s probably other interesting people there who can afford the ticket.

[01:19:32] But like it’s very much-

[01:19:33] Jayson: Yeah …

[01:19:34] Nathan: back to him. But the praise is just this mechanism that constantly reinforces like what interactions did you have with these other people? And then the virtual, um, praise You know, when people are doing it in the Facebook group or the WhatsApp app group, it sends this constant signal to everyone else of like, “Oh, we’re the type of community that invests in each other, that, um, like, shows up in meaningful ways, and then meets in person.”

[01:20:01] Like, lots of the praises are for, “Thank you to this person for hosting a great dinner- Hmm … in Washington, D.C. the other night,” or, “Thank you for this person for taking me to this, you know, ball game,” or, like, whatever else that it is. And, and so it’s this subtle thing. Like, as you’re just watching it, you’re like, “Oh,” you know.

[01:20:19] Like, “Oh, MMTers meet up in person.”

[01:20:22] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:20:22] Nathan: Right? Ben Greenfield wrote a praise for, like, “Thanks, Nathan, for having me on this, your podcast,” and like, “dinner on the farm” and all that. And it’s like, right, MMTers show up in person.

[01:20:31] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:20:31] Nathan: And, and so it’s just this constant, um, reminder that doesn’t have to… It, it, it’s entirely…

[01:20:37] You could say, “You know what’d be great this year that I’d love to encourage at MMT, is more people to meet up in person outside of the event.”

[01:20:43] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:44] Nathan: And people would be like, “Oh yeah, that’s a good idea.”

[01:20:46] Jayson: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:46] Nathan: But it’s so different if the community is constantly like, “I met up with this person. It was amazing.”

[01:20:50] Yeah. And then, you know, you kind of flip back through your Rolodex of the event and go, “Oh, who do I wanna meet up with?” Or, “Who are the MMTers that I know in this city?” And it’s this flywheel that just keeps reinforcing.

[01:20:59] Jayson: The- you and your flywheels. I love them.

[01:21:01] Nathan: They’re always there.

[01:21:02] Jayson: Uh, if you don’t mind, I’d love to touch on two quick things- Yeah

[01:21:04] pertaining to the praise activity, which I think is really powerful. I think every event- Mm-hmm … in-person experience should have a praise activity like this. Um, and basically to what you said, uh, we use it as a reflection tool every day. Uh, it’s one of the first things we start with in the morning, saying, like, some variation of, like, reflecting on the last day.

[01:21:24] Share a… Think of a, a conversation you had. Maybe it was, you know, in the hallway, maybe it was at dinner, what have you. Um, but reflect on that, that interaction and write that person, like, a, a praise post. And it could be about the event. It could be like, “Hey, six months ago, this person showed up for me in a big way.”

[01:21:41] Mm-hmm. Uh, but we get everybody to process it by putting it on paper first. Uh, we have these cards. We usually get them to do two or three. Then we’ll get a couple people to share out loud, which is a, a important factor. Uh, and then we collect all these cards at the end of the event, and we’ll have well over 1,000 of these cards, which Candace then organizes them all and then mails them all out.

[01:21:59] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:21:59] Jayson: But she mails them 90 days later. Mm-hmm. And what happens is usually you’re on this high of an event, and then afterwards, uh, it’s, you’re back to normal w- Yeah … in your day-to-day life. To get this, like, surprise package 90 day l- uh, 90 days la- la- uh, later with, like, all these praises just brings you back.

[01:22:17] Um, and, like, the amount of times people end up doing another praise post in the community- … because they got the cards and they’re like, “I was going through a really rough day today, and, like, these… or really rough week, and these, like, really, like, you know, lift me up,” and that kind of stuff. And then from a community builder’s perspective, one of the cool things for me is getting to see who gets the most praise cards.

[01:22:37] Mm-hmm. ‘Cause it’s not always the most ex- extroverted people and that kind of stuff. Yeah. But those are ultimately, like, your culture carriers, and those are the people who drive the community. So as a result, you can be very top of mind that, like, m- I would say put golden handcuffs on them, but to, to some degree they really drive, you know, the value of the membership.

[01:22:54] Um, so that’s a, you know, a little behind-the-scenes insight which is really

[01:22:58] Nathan: valuable. When you, you get this data, ’cause there might be someone that you brought into the community and you’re like, “I think they’re gonna be a really good fit, but are they going to- Yeah … gel with everyone and all of that.

[01:23:05] Yeah. And then you look back and they get a whole bunch of praise cards, and you’re like-

[01:23:07] Jayson: Yeah …

[01:23:07] Nathan: like, it might be just be this open loop in the back of your mind- Yeah, yeah … as a community organizer, like, “I took a bit of a chance. Did it pay off?” And you’re like, “Oh, yeah, it paid off in a big way.” Amazing.

[01:23:16] Jayson: Well, I mean, and, and naturally you automatically often think that, like, again, the extroverted people.

[01:23:21] Mm-hmm. Uh, you, like, you feel drawn to them, and you’re like, “The, the community, they are the community,” when you realize that sometimes it’s oftentimes the more quiet people that, like, will have deeper conversations and meaningful conversations with people that really drive the experience. So- Mm-hmm … as somebody who’s constantly curating the community, that intel is just invaluable.

[01:23:39] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, that, that feedback loop is so powerful. But then I’m also thinking about from a marketing and business perspective, ’cause often these flywheels that you create are so simple, but then they have these byproducts, and one of the byproducts is if you ever want to do a talk or whatever else and ta- and say like, “Okay, what is the value of being in MMT?”

[01:23:57] Then you’re like, “Hmm, over the last decade, which of these thousand stories would I like to pull from?”

[01:24:02] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:24:02] Nathan: Because you made a system that tells not only you but everyone else- Yeah … about all the ones that people wanna volunteer.

[01:24:08] Jayson: Yeah. Never thought of that. That’s good.

[01:24:11] Nathan: And now you can combine

[01:24:12] Jayson: them all onto- That’s wh- this is act-

[01:24:13] secretly into one … this is actually, ladies and gentlemen, secretly a coaching session. Uh- Yeah,

[01:24:16] Nathan: exactly.

[01:24:17] Jayson: I appreciate that. That’s awesome.

[01:24:18] Nathan: Well, we’re gonna do a whole other episode on the book launch- Mm-hmm … and everything else, but one thing that we haven’t talked about yet and that we’ll just wrap up on is the title of the book, right?

[01:24:26] Everyone talks about entrepreneurs being self-made. Why did you, why did you call the book what you did?

[01:24:31] Jayson: Well, God knows I got flack for it. Uh, anytime you ask anybody for feedback on book titles, you’ll get feedback. Um, and it just muddies the water more than anything. But, um- You know, the, the, the stance of the book is challenging this notion of being self-made.

[01:24:48] Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s one of those things every time I hear the term, uh, I have, like, a reaction to it, and I just wanna, like, plant my flag in the sand that, like, that is the wrong approach. Because no matter what you strive to achieve in life, the fingerprints of others will always be on your journey. Um, and that doesn’t…

[01:25:07] Like, that could be if you have a company, it’s, like, your team. It’s, like, the people who mentors and people who’ve kinda facilitated connections and that kinda stuff. So the actual s- quick story, if you don’t mind- Yeah … of, like, how the term community made came about was in 2017, we hosted a gathering, and normally I open the gatherings by setting the container, like we talked about.

[01:25:29] So I usually do a talk and that kind of stuff. That year, we decided to do something different. We brought somebody on stage. They were sharing their story. Um, so this individual was doing fitness videos on YouTube and was a comedian and, uh, packaged everything in a book, and everybody was just hanging on every word.

[01:25:47] And at the end of this talk, uh, he said, “Unlike most of you, I can’t navigate the world without help. Um, and as a result, I’m not self-made, I’m community-made.” And that individual, his name is Zach Anner. Mm-hmm. And he has cerebral palsy, so he was on the s- the stage in a wheelchair. Um, and the reason I got him to open the event is so many entrepreneurs There’s a lot of entrepreneurs that don’t, or individuals that don’t focus on building relationships.

[01:26:17] Then there’s a small segment that understand relationships are important, so they build, uh, and invest heavily in relationships. Uh, but that’s only half the battle. You need to be willing to ask for help. And, um, having Zach as an example, to me, was going to really kinda set the tone. But when he said, “I’m not self-made, I’m community-made,” I was like, “I’m gonna go take that domain right now- Yep

[01:26:38] and give him credit wherever I can.” Yeah. Because it, uh, has done just such a beautiful job to, like, solidify, um, just the different position to, like, those who take the self-made stance. So, um, so the fact that he crystallized that into the term community-made, that naturally felt like the title, uh, for the book.

[01:26:58] And even through all the pushback I got at different stages, uh, I stuck with it. And now I feel, um, it’s the perfect title.

[01:27:05] Nathan: Oh, yeah. It’s so good.

[01:27:06] Jayson: Yeah.

[01:27:06] Nathan: Well, the book is Community Made: The Truth About Success and the Relationships That Create It. Jason, thank you so much for coming on.

[01:27:13] Jayson: Appreciate you, my man.

[01:27:15] Nathan: If Jason got you thinking about what makes people want to keep coming back to a community again and again, then I think you’re really gonna like episode 127 with Will Guidara and Brian Canlis. In fact, Jason’s the person who introduced me to Will. Will wrote the book Unreasonable Hospitality, which has sold millions of copies.

[01:27:33] And in the episode, we get into so much more than just hospitality in the episode. Like the video if you enjoyed it, hit Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you’re listening, and I’ll see you next week.