The #1 Way to Grow Your Audience in 2026 | 149

[00:00:00] Doma: Thought leadership is the result, not the goal.

[00:00:01] Nathan: Over the years, DOMA has worked with the biggest thought leaders out there. This episode is a rare look into the behind the scenes of how they actually run their businesses.

[00:00:08] Doma: The number one source of growth in the creator economy and for thought leaders today is-

[00:00:15] Nathan: I love that.

[00:00:15] Nathan: He said that the connections that helped him land big clients came more as a result of personal, specific outreach.

[00:00:21] Doma: I had another successful outreach to my favorite club, Manchester United. Okay, yeah. Just emailed their sporting director, put together a document like, “This is how to transform the club,” and, like, went into all the tactics and what kind of players to buy and everything.

[00:00:35] Doma: He responded in, like, five days and said, “Yeah, let’s talk.” This

[00:00:38] Nathan: is how he landed clients like Arthur Brooks, Matthew McConaughey, Bob Waldinger, Bill Burnett, and Dave Evans.

[00:00:42] Doma: Connecting with that person and understanding their voice and understanding who they are and, and, and showing real interest in their work, that’s as important in my process of convincing them to be my clients.

[00:00:52] Nathan: I love having you on where you can talk about, like, “Here’s what actually works. Here’s the behind the scenes on all these big launches [00:01:00] and everything else.” Gomo, welcome to the show.

[00:01:03] Doma: Thank you, Nathan. Great to be here.

[00:01:05] Nathan: We actually met through working on Matthew McConaughey. So you have, uh, done a bunch of newsletters for a bunch of exciting people.

[00:01:13] Nathan: We’ve actually grabbed– We’ve got a few books here, uh, I should pull up. Just a few of your clients, uh, Matthew McConaughey, you know, no big deal. Uh, you came out to Boise when you were recording with Bill and Dave for, uh, How to Live a Meaningful Life. And then, uh, you’ve also got Arthur Brooks in the, uh, client roster.

[00:01:33] Nathan: So we’re gonna dive into behind the scenes in some of these book launches, some of these massive newsletter launches, and all of that. Um, but first, how does a random guy from Hungary end up being like Matthew McConaughey’s main guy for running a newsletter, uh, and then, you know, obviously doing it for so many other people?

[00:01:52] Doma: Yeah. Well, I, I still don’t understand quite myself, but, uh- But, um, yeah, I came to the US five years ago to do my [00:02:00] MBA at Harvard. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, I read Green Lights, uh, actually, like, just before that. I listened to it, I read it. I think I read it, like, four times by the time. Yeah. And so I was at Harvard and, um, I was, like, trying to figure out my life, which by the way I, I was using a lot of Dave and Bill’s-

[00:02:18] Doma: Designing Your Life book, um, trying to, like, do different prototypes as they call it. Um, and one of which was actually, like, making movies, which is still, like, one of my long-term goals. Um, and so I’m talking to a couple people, producers, directors, all that, and one of them was a producer distributor guy who ended up somehow knowing Matthew.

[00:02:38] Doma: And then basically I got connected and, uh, I, I did an internship for him, and then we started doing more and more w-work together. But it really came out of nothing. I mean, it definitely helped that I had a, a background in, like, kind of the service industry. I was at McKinsey before- Mm-hmm … which is, like, kind of the opposite in terms of, like, the creative work, uh, side of things.

[00:02:57] Doma: But, like, how do you work with someone so high profile? Mm-hmm. [00:03:00] Um, having worked with a lot of CEOs and all that, that helped.

[00:03:03] Nathan: Something else that you do that I think every creator, every entrepreneur can l-learn from is the level of direct outreach that you do. Like, a bunch of your clients, it’s just like, “Oh, I took a class from them, and then I stayed in touch, and then I pitched this,” or, “I just liked their book and so I reached out.”

[00:03:22] Nathan: Like, what are a few of those examples of you not being like, “Oh, I wish maybe someday I could work with these people on this level”?

[00:03:28] Doma: Yeah.

[00:03:29] Nathan: But instead saying like, “Oh, I want it to happen and so I’m going to engineer it.” Yeah.

[00:03:33] Doma: It’s funny actually, when I started my company Flowin, which is this creative agency for thought leaders I almost didn’t start because I had another successful outreach, which was to my favorite club, Manchester United.

[00:03:47] Nathan: Okay. Yeah.

[00:03:48] Doma: And I basically just emailed, uh, their sporting director telling them, because they were, like, basically buying the club, new owners were coming in, and, and I put together a document like, “This is how to [00:04:00] transform the club,” and, like, went into all the tactics and what kind of players to buy and everything, uh, without having any experience in- Right

[00:04:06] Doma: in that industry, um, other than 20 years of watching them. And so I, I put together this document and, and he responded in, like, five days and said, like, “Yeah, let’s talk,” and then, like, basically wanted to bring me on as, like, the chief whatever transformation officer.

[00:04:20] Nathan: Right.

[00:04:20] Doma: Uh, and then they g- they got a new CEO and somehow it didn’t work out, so, um, didn’t end up going that route, and I started a company instead, which is great, but, um, that was a, that was a funny story, um, about outreach.

[00:04:34] Nathan: So something that you do, and ’cause I, I’ve seen this a bunch of times, you have, bring a lot of clients to Kit. Uh, there was a few that we were talking about. It was like, “Oh, he, was he on Kit before?” And you’re like, “No, no, I brought him

[00:04:43] Doma: on.” And I’m, and I’m not being paid by Kit. Yeah,

[00:04:46] Nathan: exactly. Uh, but then the other side is we will, we’ll bring people to you as well, where here’s someone who maybe has a newsletter, um, or maybe has a big YouTube channel or, you know, a big [00:05:00] following in some way and wants to have a newsletter, but they need someone to, like, do the strategy and, and all this side of it.

[00:05:05] Nathan: But what I always see you do is put together these very thorough decks where it’s like, “Hey, here’s…” Not the perfect solution, ’cause you always say, like, “I don’t know. You know, you know your world better. Like, I’m coming in as an outsider, but here’s, with everything I know, here’s what I would do.” And you put it together into, you know, 10 to 15 slides and walk through it, and it seems super professional.

[00:05:24] Nathan: It’s like the McKinsey consultant- Yeah. … comes out. I think you said that once. You showed me your old deck and it was like, “Look, I, I’m, I’m a management consultant. I speak in slide decks.”

[00:05:33] Doma: Yeah. You can’t take the McKinsey out of the person.

[00:05:35] Nathan: Yeah. But what it does, whereas a lot of people would, would send off a casual email and be like, “Hey, man, I got some ideas about how you could run, you know, Manchester United better.

[00:05:46] Nathan: Uh, ping me if you wanna chat.” And everyone’s like, “No.” Like, delete, you know? But when you put in, when you take the ideas and flesh them out and then package them well, it gets this level of attention where someone’s like, [00:06:00] it’s like I don’t know how good these ideas are or whatever else, but someone clearly put a lot of thought and attention into it.

[00:06:06] Nathan: And if it’s good enough to get a, you know, whatever, multi-billion dollar um, football club to pay attention, it’ll probably get, you know, a Harvard professor or, you know, someone else to pay attention as well.

[00:06:19] Doma: Yeah, yeah. And I think with the, uh, this actually just came to my mind as, as you said it, but I, I think in this specific industry, the reason why it’s important is because what you’re basically doing is showing your own thought leadership-

[00:06:34] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:06:34] Doma: and also stories- storytelling skills. Like, that’s what it is, right? Right. Like, uh, a deck is a storytelling tool. Um, and that’s exactly what I’ll then need to do for them.

[00:06:45] Nathan: So

[00:06:46] Doma: you- By turning their thought leadership into a story- Yeah … um, towards the audience.

[00:06:49] Nathan: So while we’re talking about pitches and how to get in front of the right people, one, one thing that I’m curious about is how you use these credibility indicators or little signs that you have in order to get in the [00:07:00] room, right?

[00:07:00] Nathan: If you say McKinsey, Harvard, and then now you have names, uh, that you can share as well- Right … but you didn’t have that a few years ago. How do you use that in order to craft your pitch so that someone at least opens the deck or responds to the email- Right … and you can get past that initial filter?

[00:07:16] Doma: I mean, I think there’s, there’s definitely when, like, it’s a cold email, then, like, even, like, the subject line matters similar to, like, any, you know, kid customer’s newsletter.

[00:07:26] Doma: Right. Um, so for example, in the Manchester United story, I did have Harvard in the subject line- Right … and I think, uh, even some of my other, uh, experiences. But I also think that, um- Other than the kind of labels and the titles, um, it’s much more broader than that. Uh, it’s much more about who, who you are as a person.

[00:07:48] Doma: And that includes like, yeah, I can do the hard work, that’s why I got into Harvard and McKinsey and whatnot.

[00:07:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:07:54] Doma: Um, but connecting with that person and understanding their voice and understanding who they are and, and, and [00:08:00] showing real interest in their work, I feel like that’s as important in my process of convincing them to be my clients.

[00:08:06] Doma: And a lot of times it’s not even like, you know, thought through in advance. So like with, with Dave, for example, I went to one of his talks, Dave Evans, the, the author of De- Designing Your Life. I went to one of his talks at Harvard while I was still a student, and then he has this thing like office hours for life.

[00:08:24] Nathan: Right.

[00:08:24] Doma: And put his email on, and then I emailed him, and then we had office hours like three times the next three years. And as I was figuring out what to do and starting this agency, then I’m like, “Well, actually…” So he was telling me like, “Oh, we’re launching a new book,” and I’m like, “Hey, you know, that’s what I’m doing now.”

[00:08:41] Nathan: Like actually showing up and having those conversations.

[00:08:43] Doma: Exactly. And so he knew that I’m interested in the content because I was at the talk and I was talking to him for years. Same with Arthur. I mean, Arthur was my, uh, leadership and happiness professor at Harvard. At Harvard. Uh, and I was the one who was always there after for the 20-minute break asking follow-up questions about-

[00:08:59] Nathan: Great

[00:08:59] Nathan: the talk. ‘Cause they say [00:09:00] like, you know, every professor has office hours.

[00:09:03] Doma: Yeah.

[00:09:03] Nathan: Right? You know, Bill and Dave are like over the top with it, where they’re like, “If you have e-…” What do they say? “If you’ve ever attended one of our lectures anywhere”- Yes …

[00:09:11] Doma: like you’re eligible for the office hours. Exactly.

[00:09:13] Nathan: A lot of these people have ways that you can get access to them, and just taking advantage of that, especially when you’re talking about thought leaders more than like influencers.

[00:09:23] Nathan: Yeah. Right? ‘Cause they’re here to educate and teach. But even doing something like going to a talk that someone does, and then waiting in line or like talking to them afterwards, and even if it’s for two minutes, and I always try to be the one to end the conversation so that I’m not the like… I, I, I call it, um, leaving energy- Right.

[00:09:43] Nathan: versus lingering energy, right? And so you don’t wanna be the one hanging on, taking too much of their time. But then you just follow up afterwards, and you send that email and you say, “Hey, loved your event last night,” or, “Loved the, the class you taught,” whatever it is. “I learned so much from it. I was the one who [00:10:00] asked you the question about this.”

[00:10:01] Nathan: And you can continue the relationship. Anything else that you would add for like turning these Big important, uh, relationships, like tiny interactions into, you know, an opportunity to work together or a friendship.

[00:10:13] Doma: I mean, I would say like general curiosity is, is really important. Yeah. Like, oh, the reason why I wanted to work with these people, even just get close to them, I ne- sometimes I didn’t even have the idea that I’m gonna work with them-

[00:10:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:10:25] Doma: was curiosity in their work. Um, you know, Bob Waldinger is another example. He was the last director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, and he’s a Zen priest and a therapist, and we got connected ’cause I was considering doing a PhD in mindfulness- Right … um, and, and happiness and, and he was advising me on that.

[00:10:44] Doma: And then we were talking about life for, for an hour and how to, you know, introduce Zen into your life. So had no idea that he’s gonna need the help. And then he told me once that, “You know, I have these questions about launching this online course. Like, can you help?” And, and we [00:11:00] started talking and- And you’re

[00:11:00] Nathan: like, “I actually know a lot about that

[00:11:02] Doma: world.”

[00:11:02] Doma: Exactly. So it’s kind of like, um, you know, there are things in life where, like, if you want them and you wanna figure them out too much, like you’re not actually getting them, and then, like, when you don’t want them, you’re getting them. Mm-hmm. And I think that’s where, like, curiosity is. It’s kind of like a- Right

[00:11:15] Doma: bottom-up approach, not a top-down.

[00:11:17] Nathan: The example of that would be if you had made a spreadsheet of saying, “These are the top 50 thought leaders that I would love to work with in my life.” Yeah. And

[00:11:24] Doma: I have that spreadsheet. Spreadsheets. But

[00:11:26] Nathan: if, if you started from only that place, then it would be formulaic and all that.

[00:11:34] Nathan: But instead, you’re saying, “These are the people who I love their work. I’ve read and listened to Greenlights many times. You know, I’m immersed in this world. I’m trying to learn from Bob. I’m trying to,” you know.

[00:11:45] Doma: Yeah.

[00:11:45] Nathan: Um, all of that, and then- There’s much more natural opportunities- Yeah … of like, you’re like, you know, “Hey, if you ever need help with these things, I can always do that.”

[00:11:53] Nathan: And they’re like, “Actually, in fact, I do need help with that because I’m a Stanford professor, not a professional marketer.”

[00:11:59] Doma: [00:12:00] Exactly. And then, and then the other thing, and this of course becomes more relevant, um, to the topic at hand, which is the creator economy, is that- Mm-hmm … as you also know, like it’s so connected and everybody’s- Right

[00:12:11] Doma: you know, working with everybody that like once you’re in it, then it’s much easier to get to, um, people. And like, I don’t know, when we’re on a book tour and taking people, um, to different podcasts- Mm-hmm … then of course I meet those podcasters, and if there’s one that I particularly like, I’m gonna talk to them and maybe there’s something coming out of that as well, so.

[00:12:28] Nathan: Yeah, I think I’ve, I’ve seen a photo of you and Mel Robbins together as you’ve been taking a client on, on, uh, one of those podcasts. Yeah. Well, she,

[00:12:36] Doma: she has a team of like 50 doing everything with like so much science and everything. I don’t know if I can help there, but, um, maybe, um, maybe someone else, so.

[00:12:44] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. But, but just like that’s an example of how the network, like your network spreads as you’re helping one thought leader, then you’re going to end up- Exactly …

[00:12:53] Doma: helping others. It’s like classic network effects.

[00:12:54] Nathan: Right. Okay, so you have this idea that you really take clients through and you really think about of, [00:13:00] is it seven levels of or seven key elements of thought leadership?

[00:13:03] Doma: Exactly, yeah. So it’s like basically the, the seven strategic steps to succeed- Mm-hmm … as a thought leader, and we can go through each if that’s

[00:13:11] Nathan: helpful. Yeah, let’s, let’s dive in. So the first ones start, they’re more on the art side of things, then they get more into the science side as you go along. Is that right?

[00:13:18] Doma: Exactly. Exactly. Well, I think the… So the first one, which is the most important I think, is, um- To develop exceptional knowledge or wisdom or life experience first, and going back to this thought leadership is the result, not the goal idea. Um, so you know, a lot of these thought leaders, they have like 30 years of experience as academics or writers or actors, and then they become thought leaders.

[00:13:43] Doma: Because fundamentally, what a thought leader is again, is a teacher, and like in order to teach something you have to know that thing. Right. Um, and, and, and that, that, that doesn’t mean that someone cannot be a thought leader when they’re young, because a lot of young people had amazing successes or life stories, [00:14:00] experiences, but it’s really important that you start your thought leadership in that specific field.

[00:14:05] Doma: Um, and not just like, “Okay, I’m gonna be a thought leader in-” Right … you know, football strategy. Like, like I tried to be. Um- It almost worked.

[00:14:14] Nathan: It almost worked, yeah, yeah. Then they figured it out.

[00:14:17] Doma: Then kind of the second one is getting a bit more specific, um, about the why. Like why do you even do this? What’s your mission?

[00:14:25] Doma: Like for example, Arthur Brooks’ mission is to build a happier world, and not just, um, the why, but also the how of that. So kind of like developing the theory of change, uh, the mission and the theory of change, um, which is in his case, like he wants to create a happiness movement, so he wants others to teach his material, which is like a very different approach to then like I’m just doing it alone, right?

[00:14:50] Doma: Like in terms of the, the strategic choices that you later make of bringing in other people into all this work, and teaching at Harvard, for example, and [00:15:00] hoping, uh, and actively shaping people like me, for example, who are really interested in happiness. And now I’m gonna talk about his stuff to everybody that I meet.

[00:15:08] Doma: Mm. Right? And, and that’s what I actually did, and I, you know, I, I, I was looking at his, uh, you know, Instagram the other day. I have like more than 100 friends following him. So- Oh,

[00:15:17] Nathan: wow. Yeah …

[00:15:18] Doma: so like that’s for example, an example of like having another, building a happiness teacher. Um, and he could take another, another way.

[00:15:26] Doma: Like he could just do research, right? And then maybe write one book and, and that’s it. So that’s why it’s important, like what’s the, what’s the why and the how.

[00:15:35] Nathan: Yeah. Diving into that, it’s interesting how much, like having that, that deeper why you’re doing something matters, but then also choosing how you’re going to do it, right?

[00:15:45] Nathan: And so in Arthur’s case, he’s really going to rely on other people You know, he’s saying like, “I need– This is not just me in the exclusive keynote that’s at the highest price possible, so I can only teach as few of them a year.” He’s like, “No, I have to clone these [00:16:00] ideas into other people’s and have them spread and share it.”

[00:16:03] Nathan: So, you know, as you move through, you know, each of these steps, like they’re very much in sequence because the, the downstream strategy is gonna change dramatically.

[00:16:12] Doma: Exactly. Depending- I mean, that’s what really strategy is, right? Yeah. Like you, you kind of start top down and then everything’s gonna be influenced by those-

[00:16:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:16:19] Doma: first strategy choices. And, and the third one is, um, you know, the first that’s maybe, um, a little bit more concrete, which is developing an ecosystem strategy- Mm-hmm … in this thought leadership space. There’s a transtheoretical model of behavior change that I like to use, which it sounds complicated, but it really is just like the six steps of behavior change.

[00:16:41] Doma: Okay. My friend James Clear surely talks about this a lot, um, which basically starts with the, the contemplation to change, and then it ends in like the, the transformation and the maintenance of change when you are already a changed person. And so that’s, that, those are six steps that every human goes through to [00:17:00] change.

[00:17:00] Doma: And what I’ve done is I was think– I, I started thinking about this, okay, what does this mean for a thought leader? Like, you can basically impact a human change through all those six steps, and you’re gonna do differently in each step. So if you just wanna inspire someone to start changing, then like going on a TV show and talking about something cool for twenty minutes, that’s great.

[00:17:22] Doma: But if you actually want them to, for example, start creating a habit out of it, which is a later step, then like starting a newsletter on Kit- Right … is, is a great idea ’cause it’s a weekly newsletter, right? So you can weekly, um, influence the habits of people, um, as opposed to just inspiring them once. And then if you’re like, “I just wanna like really work on transformation,” then for example, like coaching someone one-on-one is, is better.

[00:17:48] Doma: And I think there’s different people with different skill sets as thought leaders who can influence those steps differently. And for example, Artur is a good example of, uh, someone who’s, like, such a great [00:18:00] speaker that’s going on, like, doing keynotes and going to TV and all that. Like, he’s very strong in, like, the inspiration- Right

[00:18:07] Doma: side of things. But then, like, for example, Bob, who’s also a good speaker, but he actually, like, holds, like, Dharma talks and is a therapist, so he’s gonna do a lot of one-on-one work- Mm-hmm … um, which may not be as big in scale, but is probably deeper in impact.

[00:18:21] Nathan: When you think about that ecosystem, are, are there other decisions that you’ve seen people make that push them one way or another?

[00:18:28] Nathan: Or, or like, a how you match the ecosystem to the type of thought leader?

[00:18:33] Doma: Yeah. So there’s, um, there’s like a set of questions that we go through always, and, and what I talked about first was basically just about impact. Mm-hmm. But, uh, there’s of course a clear question around monetization, ’cause each of those different channels and products across these six steps have different economics.

[00:18:51] Doma: Um, so of course, like, if someone is a speaker like Artur, like, clearly, like, his speaking fee is, is very high. So like, you know- [00:19:00] speeches for him make sense. Um, whereas like someone who, you know, may, may not be as good of a speaker but has a really good network of people in like the coach community, like a coaching certification is great.

[00:19:14] Doma: And, and like Bill and Dave, I mean, they’re great speakers too, but their, their Designing Your Life book was so popular among coaches that it started a movement in itself. Like they didn’t even wanna start it. They were like- Correct … coaches coming to them like, “Hey, let’s create a coaching certification out of this.”

[00:19:29] Doma: And they’re like, “You don’t need it. Just read the book.”

[00:19:31] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:19:31] Doma: But they’re like, “No, we need it.” So like they have like a Facebook Live.

[00:19:34] Nathan: Right.

[00:19:35] Doma: And there were like hundreds of people joining in and, and now they have like these set of certifications. Um, and then, you know, a third point in that is like alignment to content, so how good of a fit your thought leadership is to the different channels, to the different products.

[00:19:51] Doma: And, and that’s actually my fourth point in, in the list, which is turning your thought leadership into specific content forms, which you can then use across [00:20:00] all these different channels across the, the six steps. But there’s, um… Because for, like you take like Bob Waldinger for example, like, I mean, because he’s a Zen priest, like w- the newsletter we launched for him on Kit, it has, um, a meditation included.

[00:20:16] Nathan: Mm.

[00:20:16] Doma: Um, so every newsletter has a m- a, a recorded video meditation, which is like really important that we actually record it on video as well ’cause he has a calming voice and presence and all this. So like having that presence is, is very important. So for him, that works really well. I have, uh, another client, Reza Sachu, who’s a m- five-time founder, billionaire entrepreneur, and like his, he’s so intense, he’s so, um…

[00:20:41] Doma: He’s creating this tension even in, in the classroom that, uh, for him, for example, like really high intensity reels really work well. So we started developing those on, on Instagram. So there, there are these different like content choices- Yeah … that you can make. Um, and especially like with writers, thought leaders, like, um, [00:21:00] written content is really important.

[00:21:01] Doma: So like that’s why starting a newsletter, for example, uh, is a clear… You can think of all, all sorts of different ways to turn the thought leadership into some content that then reaches an audience and Has an impact on them.

[00:21:12] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. And finding that right fit for each person makes

[00:21:17] Doma: a big difference.

[00:21:18] Nathan: Is there anything that was pitched or you’re a-about to pitch something and you’re like, “Oh, I think this w- actually no, that would not be the right, you know, content,” uh, thought leader matchup either for their, their type of, uh … like, for their topic or, you know, their style and energy as a individual?

[00:21:34] Doma: Yeah, yeah.

[00:21:35] Doma: I mean, uh, what basically happens always is that, like, you know, once someone becomes a s-successful thought leader, then all of a sudden, like, everybody’s starting to, like, approach them and like, “Let’s do this online course,” and, um, whatever, “Let’s, let’s do all these speeches.” And so there’s a lot of inbound and even, you know, it’s interesting, like, with my work and, and our work with, with Flowin, like, I’m of course in some way, like, [00:22:00] incentivized to do more and more ’cause like- Right

[00:22:02] Doma: it’s just a business model. But I need to kind of catch myself like, “Okay, let’s protect the thought leader and, and only give media projects to the client or only start media projects with the client that actually makes sense for them,” because they may not want to run around. Like Dave and Bill, for example, they’re

[00:22:22] Doma: They enjoy their life now. Like, they don’t wanna, like, run around the country giving speeches all the time and, like, of course they have a speaking a-agent, but, like, it’s not something that’s a good fit. So yeah, there’s, there’s always … Like, almost everybody gets requests all the time for different projects that just, like, doesn’t make sense for them.

[00:22:38] Nathan: Okay, what’s the next pillar?

[00:22:39] Doma: The next one is, is building the right team and that’s, um, of course a, a tricky one ’cause, like, when you-when someone’s a thought leader I mean, they might come again, like they might be a professor, and so, like even like thinking of like, “Oh, I need to hire a team now to do something, um, completely different than- Right

[00:22:59] Doma: what I’ve [00:23:00] done,” is like a big leap of faith. And I’ve seen teams ranging from like there’s just like one assistant, and then that’s it, to like a team of like 15. Like Arthur, for example, has a huge team.

[00:23:12] Nathan: Yeah, so I see this as well, where if you thought about like, uh, size of influence and team, they’re often not that correlated.

[00:23:21] Doma: Yeah.

[00:23:22] Nathan: So James Clear and Tim Ferriss both have one-ish person teams. I think Tim has, so Christa, who runs everything behind the scenes. Um, and then Tim also has an assistant, whereas James just has his assistant. You know, and so you get these like multi-million subscriber email lists, like influence and reach far beyond like the biggest magazines that have editorial, you know, like all of this stuff, and they’re like, you know, where you could reasonably have 25 to 40 people probably, and they’re like, “Nope, just, just the one or two.”

[00:23:57] Nathan: Yeah. And then, you know, on the other side, [00:24:00] like let’s, let’s break down Arthur’s team a little bit because I think that’s really interesting of the scale of, of team that he has. But I think it makes sense when you get into all the opportunities that he’s working through.

[00:24:09] Doma: Yeah, because and, you know, like audience size or influence, however you define it, I mean, Arthur’s now is like huge, um, he has like a million Instagram followers and, um, a growing newsletter and all that, but definitely James Clear’s newsletter is much bigger.

[00:24:26] Doma: So you could say like why does Arthur need 15 people and James has one? And I think that has to do with kind of going back to that number three ecosystem strategy. Like how many things are you tapping into from different- Right … channels and, and products available in the creator economy, and James is primarily focused on his newsletter, right?

[00:24:43] Nathan: It’s just

[00:24:44] Doma: the book- That’s still what- Like the book and the newsletter … and then the book, of course. Yeah. Like that’s

[00:24:46] Nathan: pretty much all. And-

[00:24:47] Doma: And he– And it’s a simple newsletter, like he can easily write it every week himself. Mm-hmm. Um, and then when he writes a book, I guess he spends a lot of time on that.

[00:24:55] Nathan: The way that he described it on actually an episode that w- we just released [00:25:00] is most people ask the question, what is the single most effective w- like tactic, strategy that I could maximize towards this goal? And so they end up doing, you know, something over here on Instagram and then over here, like they’re just spread all over the place.

[00:25:15] Nathan: And what he does instead is he desi– he draws a box around his ideal day and his ideal life, and then he says, “For a goal that I want to achieve, what is the single most effective strategy that I could do that fits within this predefined box?”

[00:25:29] Doma: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:29] Nathan: And so that’s why you don’t see him You know, doing face-to-camera reels on Instagram or growing a YouTube channel- Yeah

[00:25:37] Nathan: or, um, starting these other companies or doing all these things, ’cause he’s like, “Look, I have a very tightly drawn box and that’s, like, that’s what I’m gonna do.” Yeah. And so within that-

[00:25:49] Doma: That’s life design

[00:25:49] Nathan: in action. That’s life design, yeah, exactly. So within that, he’s like, “Okay, what can I do to maximize reach and impact and revenue?”

[00:25:56] Nathan: But he has the, you know, the order flipped. Whereas, like, quite [00:26:00] candidly, I’m in the other place where I… You know, it’s interesting hanging out with James because we’re so different. Like, I’m trying to maximize all these things. I’m in New York for the third time in six weeks. Right. I

[00:26:11] Doma: don’t

[00:26:11] Nathan: live in the city you know, despite, like you and I

[00:26:16] Doma: have hung out quite- I’ve seen you more here than in Singapore

[00:26:18] Nathan: too.

[00:26:18] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. But it’s because, like, this is what I’m optimizing for is the- Right … the joy of creation and doing it at scale and all of this. Like, I have drawn a very different box than- Right … than James has. Yeah. Yeah. And so seeing what the different thought leaders have done is interesting.

[00:26:32] Doma: Exactly, yeah.

[00:26:33] Doma: And so with a bit Archer, like you, you see him, of course, giving a lot of speeches. So like, you know, having someone who manage that is important. Mm-hmm. He goes to all sorts of universities. I mean, he’s teaching himself. He writes a lot. So like someone who’s managing university partnerships or is helping with research is, is important- Mm-hmm

[00:26:51] Doma: uh, as well. Um, so yeah, it’s just like a strategic choice and, and of course the economics have to reflect that. So like you [00:27:00] need to figure out a way to like, okay, how do we pay for this- So then you gotta, you

[00:27:02] Nathan: gotta pay those salaries …

[00:27:03] Doma: machine. Yeah. Exactly. And, um, without going into numbers with a- with any of them, like specific ones, that’s where, like, it’s so important to define what your goal is.

[00:27:13] Doma: Because again, with him, it is really to have the most amount of impact and get these ideas to– out to as many people as possible. So, you know, he’s not gonna, like… Of course, like, he could turn all of his IP now into, like, probably tens of millions of dollars, like, easily with different projects if he- if that was his number one goal.

[00:27:34] Doma: And, but his number one goal is to get the ideas out. So then, okay, I need a team to get the ideas out- Mm-hmm … and I need to choose projects that are getting the ideas out. So those are the most important things. Like giving a lot of speeches, very important, because all the people in the audience are gonna then talk about it to someone else.

[00:27:51] Doma: And like, okay, my social media team is really important because that’s-

[00:27:55] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:27:55] Doma: clearly like the biggest audience. But then, you know, newsletter is, uh, important [00:28:00] because I can create word of mouth through that.

[00:28:02] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:02] Doma: Um, so that’s why it’s, it’s like, it’s just interesting that, um, in America which is like the center of capitalism, you have an industry now where- I kind of like this.

[00:28:13] Doma: Like, it’s not all about scale and growth and like- Right … maximizing revenue, but having some sort of social impact that of course we wanna make profitable and all that. Mm-hmm. But it’s not the, the only goal.

[00:28:26] Nathan: Is there anyone that you have started to work with and then you’ve been really surprised about either the size of their team, like it being much bigger or smaller than you expected, or like a particular role where you’re like, “Ooh, that, that was super clever for you to hire that or to have someone in charge of creating that outcome”?

[00:28:42] Doma: Yeah. Um, well, I think with, uh, Artur, for example, um, he has someone who has man- just manages inbound requests for speeches.

[00:28:51] Nathan: Mm.

[00:28:52] Doma: Which just shows, like, how popular of a speaker he is. That he he doesn’t even need, like, speaking agents or bureaus or all [00:29:00] that. Like, it’s just literally someone picking up the phone.

[00:29:02] Doma: No outbound. Mm. And he does like three speeches a week or something, so. Wow. So that’s, that’s an interesting role that I, I’ve never seen, um, anywhere else. Mm. And then, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen, uh, people with, like, millions of followers have, like, no team at all. Mm. And that’s also surprising. Like, how do you even do all this?

[00:29:24] Nathan: Jefferson Fisher is someone who It surprised me how long he ran and grew his social account with no team to help him on social.

[00:29:33] Doma: Right.

[00:29:33] Nathan: Now he’s very much, like, as you think– like, as he’s redrawn the box for his life, he very specifically has- Your

[00:29:41] Doma: coaching him on the podcast.

[00:29:43] Nathan: Yeah. He’s, he’s got someone helping him on social where he can create a little bit of distance, not from, like, the connection to the audience, but for his own time.

[00:29:54] Nathan: Yeah. Where he, he is split– Like, he has someone else posting those reels for him [00:30:00] so that he’s not sucked into- Yeah, yeah … the Instagram comments and everything else, right? He’s like, “Okay, I made content, and now I can spend time with my family,” or, you know, whatever else, instead of like, “Oh, I have millions of followers, so I have to be on my phone all the time.”

[00:30:13] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:30:13] Doma: yeah. And, and I think that’s also an interesting question here, especially, like, as a service provider in the field where, like, for someone like James, for example, and I had similar examples when someone came to me and asked for help, um, and I was like, “You don’t need help.” Like, like, “I, I, I would love to make money off of this, but-” Yeah

[00:30:32] Doma: I don’t think you need the help.” And, you know, like, we– James could hire five people to- Mm-hmm … run socials and all that, but, like, if what he’s doing is working perfectly already, um, why do all the trouble? And, like, of course, people would be incentivized to, to work with him and make money off of him, but it’s not what he needs, so.

[00:30:53] Nathan: Right. Yeah. That’s, that’s interesting of, like, I guess all of these people have to get [00:31:00] really good at saying no. Is there anything that you’ve learned from these thought leaders in how they say no and the filters that they use to evaluate opportunities?

[00:31:08] Doma: I feel like maybe it’s just because I’m like, I’m like that.

[00:31:11] Doma: I mean, I, it, it’s really hard for me to- Mm-hmm … to say no, uh, in general. And, uh and, and it’s- I think the mindset is always like there’s, there’s an opportunity that can come by saying yes, even if it’s not the yes- Right … I’m saying now, but like what it can lead to. And that is, I think, true partly, uh, because that’s how, like, a lot of these things that I’m doing right now came to life.

[00:31:36] Doma: So like I don’t think you need to like turn it down fully, but what I learned from these people is just maybe it’s authenticity, maybe it’s honesty. It’s some sort of like internal like strength to say no. Like it’s, it’s just the, the skill, and I think you like really need to be like sure of yourself and like have- Mm-hmm

[00:31:52] Doma: the, the kind of self-worth that these guys have to say no, and know what is in your lane right now. Like who are you [00:32:00] really? Uh, and then it gets pretty deep quickly, but um, I mean that’s, that’s why they’re thought leaders.

[00:32:06] Nathan: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, anything else on team that you’ve seen people do particularly well or that like that other creators- Hire

[00:32:14] Doma: us.

[00:32:14] Nathan: Hire, yep,

[00:32:15] Doma: exactly.

[00:32:15] Nathan: Hire the experts who

[00:32:16] Doma: have done it

[00:32:16] Nathan: before.

[00:32:17] Doma: Exactly. Um, I think for a thought leader, this is even more important than for a general creator because again, they have something that they really enjoy doing, like Arthur loves to write about happiness, uh, Matthew loves to act, uh, uh, Bill and Dave, um, loves to have office hours.

[00:32:36] Doma: Mm. So you have all these people enjoying something that- Is their number one expertise and where their wisdom and knowledge is coming from. All of a sudden, like, you wanna make them into creators and like, you know, create social media content and write newsletter and manage the newsletter. So there’s

[00:32:53] Doma: Those are things that they will not enjoy doing. So knowing what you enjoy doing as a thought leader [00:33:00] and then outsourcing everything else, I actually think that’s a very smart strategy. And like, in terms of what we are trying to do is really to make their life the easiest this way. Like take on everything that they-

[00:33:10] Nathan: Right

[00:33:10] Doma: don’t wanna do and let them focus on their craft.

[00:33:13] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean g- hiring the right team has made all the difference for me, so it’s … Highly recommend

[00:33:19] Doma: it. Well, you have a great team.

[00:33:20] Nathan: Um, all right, what’s the next one?

[00:33:22] Doma: Next one is, uh, building creator partnerships or thought leadership partnerships, um, but I think it’s broader than that.

[00:33:29] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:33:29] Doma: Um, what I’ve seen, and, and I measure this, um, the number one source of growth in the creator economy and for thought leaders today is creator partnerships.

[00:33:41] Nathan: Mm.

[00:33:42] Doma: Um, so people talk about like, you know, audience swapping and all these like- Yeah … complicated terms, but like it’s really just bringing my audience to your audience the o- and the other way around.

[00:33:52] Doma: Um, you have James has 3 million newsletter subscribers and, um, more and more coming in, and then Kit has [00:34:00] this great function called the Creator Network, where if I sign up to James’ newsletter, I get five other recommendations.

[00:34:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:08] Doma: Um, and just because of the, the growth of, of his newsletter, uh, it’s really easy to tap into that.

[00:34:14] Doma: And then of course you, you guys have a lot of your authors in the Creator Network. So that’s just one example. And then like other examples are going on podcasts and tapping into the existing podcast audience, doing collaboration posts on Instagram. So there’s, there’s a bunch of ways to do this, and I think what is important for a thought leader specifically is to be strategic and think ahead about this, uh, in advance.

[00:34:38] Doma: ‘Cause like even if you take these, your top authors like Tim Ferriss, James Clear, like everybody wants to partner with them. Right. Right? And so now like their list is full, so unless you’re friends you’re not gonna get in there. So how do you become friends? Like you, you actually need to collaborate somehow- Mm

[00:34:54] Doma: in advance of the marketing technique of doing this audience swapping. And [00:35:00] there’s different ways to do that. Um, but just like being active in the creator economy is as important go to like craft and commerce or –

[00:35:08] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that makes a huge difference to go to these events, uh, you know, and everything from there.

[00:35:14] Nathan: I guess talking specifically about Creator Network, right? ‘Cause so many people who are listening are going to be Have newsletters and all that. You and I spend a lot of time behind the scenes helping these creators form partnerships and, and, uh, match it up in Creator Network. ‘Cause really once you make a Creator Network connection, it’s in place for a long time, so it’s really worth it- Yeah

[00:35:36] Nathan: to get the right people. It’s not like, okay, we do a list swap thing that happens once. Like, no, no, no. If you and I recommend each other’s newsletters, like-

[00:35:42] Doma: In fact, it works much better than list swaps.

[00:35:45] Nathan: Yeah. Talk, talk about that. Why, why is that?

[00:35:47] Doma: Well, be- because I mean, just the, the, the timing of it. Like, you start today and then, like, the, unless you really mess up something, like people will keep recommending you, so you can do this- Right

[00:35:59] Doma: for like [00:36:00] five years. Um, whereas like a list swap is like a once-

[00:36:03] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:36:04] Doma: thing and then, like, you, you may or may not get good conversion through whatever you’re doing as a, as a list swap. So yeah, I’ve, I’ve seen it work well. I… And I think a precondition of that is to have the relationships. So like, and, and, and there’s a lot of people in Kit, so like, it’s not like there’s five people you can be friends with and then all that.

[00:36:23] Doma: Right. But like finding the right people, um, is important, and like this is important for you guys, of course, and I, I guess the, one of the m- main business reasons why, why you’re doing it is like the more creators come into Kit, the more valuable it becomes, right? Because you can choose from all your friends.

[00:36:40] Doma: And so now when I have a new client, uh, for example, Rupi Kaur is a, is a new client that we brought through Kit as well. Mm-hmm. And, um, now, like she went on a couple podcasts before, like, I don’t know, Lewis Howes and Ryan Holiday and all that. Like, so she has those relationships, um, and so now she can, you know, ask like, [00:37:00] “Hey, can we partner in the Creator Network?”

[00:37:01] Doma: Right. So now you have Rupi, so now like, I don’t know if, uh, Rick Rubin came to Kit hopefully. Right. We gotta get Rick. We can bring him- We’ll work

[00:37:09] Nathan: on

[00:37:09] Doma: that one. Yeah. As, bring client, uh, on my list for sure. They’re connected with Rupi and-

[00:37:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:37:15] Doma: a lot of the other Kit authors, so he would be able to get these recommendations.

[00:37:19] Nathan: There’s two sides to that. One is obviously most people listening aren’t going to have the level of network that the people that we’re talking about have. But it works at the same scale. It might not get you thousands of subscri- subscribers, it might get you hundreds, but your list might be a couple thousand, not hundreds of thousands.

[00:37:38] Nathan: And so putting in that work to partner with individuals, showing up to events, deliberately seeking out and meeting people who are in your industry but not competitive, who you could partnership, partner with and cross-recommend. Like it makes- Yeah … a huge, huge difference.

[00:37:54] Doma: Exactly. And sometimes it’s just like a simple message like I don’t have a lot of, like, my [00:38:00] own channels.

[00:38:00] Doma: Mm-hmm. Uh, it’s not my focus right now. Um, but I write on LinkedIn, for example. So, um, like last year, I saw a post of someone that talked about thought leadership and branding and the creator economy that was like, wow, this is a cool thought. So I messaged her. I’m like, “This, this is a great carousel,” like, “Congrats.”

[00:38:22] Doma: And she was like, “Thank you. Um, I, you know, didn’t even expect this to be such a hit,” because it went viral. Um, and then we had a couple of conversations because we both believe in the same things. And then all of a sudden like, “Okay, well, let’s create some mutual content around this.” And then we had like a series of posts going out, which was, you know, of course, smaller than these big guys’ scale.

[00:38:45] Doma: But it, it was just one message again that I sent and, and led to a lot of mutual opportunities, which is leading to mutual growth at our own scale.

[00:38:55] Nathan: Right. Yeah, and, and again, you know, you put it in place and it works for you forever. [00:39:00] What’s been so interesting as like a little, I guess, inside baseball thing for in Kit is just how much growth this is driving for everyone.

[00:39:09] Nathan: Mm-hmm. For most people who are active in Creator Network and like, and actually like put in the work. They didn’t just turn on the feature and say like- Yeah … “Oh, we’ll see what happens.” They like formed partnerships and, and pursued it. Yeah. It’s their single biggest growth channel, which like I know some creators who are getting more subscribers from Creator Network than all their other channels combined.

[00:39:29] Doma: Yeah.

[00:39:29] Nathan: But most of them, like Ryan Holiday, we did a case study on him, 40% of all of his growth is through Creator Network.

[00:39:35] Doma: Yeah.

[00:39:36] Nathan: And so you’re talking like they’ve added three to four hundred thousand subscribers to Daily Stoic just through Creator Network.

[00:39:43] Doma: Yeah.

[00:39:43] Nathan: And so the numbers are-

[00:39:44] Doma: And I’ve, I’ve seen that with my clients as well.

[00:39:47] Doma: Um, some even 50%, so.

[00:39:50] Nathan: You know what’s interesting is for, for both for Kit as a platform and for you as an advisor in the creator economy, like you can add, it’s [00:40:00] like a compounding amount of value because, you know, someone says, “Okay, I’d love to launch my newsletter. Who can I partner with?” You know, for us we’re like, “Well, here’s who’s already on the platform.”

[00:40:09] Nathan: For you, you’re like, “I can partner, I can try to form partnerships with anyone on Kit.” Yeah. Gotta work with the Kit team and their, you know, that creator’s team and all that to make it happen. But also like these six people are already my clients, and you’re all in- Yeah.

[00:40:22] Doma: That’s exactly what I’ve done in the last couple months.

[00:40:23] Nathan: You all want the same thing.

[00:40:25] Doma: Just connected- … the different clients.

[00:40:27] Nathan: And it’s such an interesting thing where I think people say Hey, if I’m pitching you on a partnership of some kind, you know, it’s like I’m, I’m calling in a favor, I’m asking, I feel bad about it. It’s like, well, hold on. I have a newsletter that I wanna grow.

[00:40:43] Nathan: You have a newsletter. Wait a second. We both have the thing that the other person wants. Yeah. Like, this is- No-brainer.

[00:40:49] Doma: This

[00:40:49] Nathan: is a win-win,

[00:40:50] Doma: you know? Yeah. And that’s actually, I think, one of the most beautiful things about the creator economy- Mm-hmm … is that the incentives are aligned.

[00:40:56] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:40:56] Doma: There’s basically no competition.

[00:40:58] Nathan: Right. Oh,

[00:40:59] Doma: no, I- Everybody’s incentivized [00:41:00] to support each other.

[00:41:00] Nathan: Yeah. I write a newsletter about happiness and living a more meaningful life. And so I can’t possibly refer anyone to your newsletter about happiness and living a more meaningful life because we’re very competitive. Like, that’s just

[00:41:10] Doma: ridiculous.

[00:41:11] Doma: Exactly. Exactly. Um, and you see that. Like, that’s why everybody’s, like, so- Right … supportive of each other and inviting them to their podcast and the other way, so I think that’s, that’s an amazing thing.

[00:41:22] Nathan: Another thing that I want creators to do more of, so I’m putting this out there in the universe now, is I want them to form their creator network partnerships before they air their episodes guesting on each other’s podcasts.

[00:41:36] Nathan: Because if you think about it, if someone were, were to systematize this, uh, and we’re working with, like, some podcast networks like Dear Media on things like this- Mm-hmm … ’cause they, I don’t know, they have like 80 shows. Right. And I think we’ve launched newsletters on Kit for 40 of them because they can cross-promote their podcasts, and then they all promote their newsletters, and their newsletters all cross-promote.

[00:41:54] Nathan: Right. And it’s like, um, you know, this wonderful world. But there’s a huge opportunity. You know, [00:42:00] someone will often say at the end of a podcast, like, “Hey, are there any resources that you wanna share, or where should people go?” And you say like, “Oh, well, I actually put together this whole thing on, you know, the seven ta- tactics to grow your newsletter,” or, “Here’s a, a s- series of talks that I did on living a meaningful life that you could download,” or…

[00:42:16] Nathan: And that’s all gonna have an email address behind it. But that form on the email address could then recommend, like, me as the– You know, it’s your resource, it could recommend me as the host. And so I’m more incentivized to drive traffic to, to your thing because- Right … some of it comes back.

[00:42:32] Doma: Mm, that’s

[00:42:32] Nathan: interesting.

[00:42:32] Nathan: So, like, if you were to take, um, like Andrew Huberman has so many great, you know, fitness and health influencers on his show, and he’s actually brought a lot of them over to Kit, uh, which is great. But, like, every time he has, um, uh, like Gabrielle Leon on, or, um, Dr. Andy, uh, Andy Galpin, like they’re all on Kit.

[00:42:59] Nathan: They should [00:43:00] be recommending each other so that-

[00:43:02] Doma: Right …

[00:43:03] Nathan: y- you know, so that, so it compounds in that way. And a lot of people will set this up downstream, but they really should do it before their episode drops- Mm … ’cause it just means more newsletter growth for everyone. Right.

[00:43:11] Doma: Right, right. Yeah. And you can push the podcast even to two audiences that way.

[00:43:16] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. And so it’s- That’s- … a flywheel. Anything else in the, uh, you know, the, the partnerships side of things that you’ve seen work really well?

[00:43:24] Doma: That’s more of the, the art there. It’s just like sometimes you just put people together and it’s like magic. Like- Yeah … I had like Bob and Bill and Dave, and we did like a mini podcast with them, and they just, like, enjoyed each other so much- Right

[00:43:37] Doma: that they just had a fun time. So I think that’s the other thing with these partnerships is like, yes, there’s like a business goal, a strategic goal, but sometimes it’s just like- Something that you can’t really predict in advance, but it’s just a great experience for them, so-

[00:43:50] Nathan: Well, I mean, I

[00:43:50] Doma: think- … it’s the fun part

[00:43:51] Nathan: your clients are so amazing. Like, you brought Bill and Dave out to Boise to come on my show. We had a wonderful dinner beforehand. Yeah. Uh, [00:44:00] you know, I’m a technology nerd.

[00:44:02] Doma: Yeah.

[00:44:02] Nathan: They have like- They

[00:44:03] Doma: loved you. They were like- Yeah … “This Nathan guy is something else.” They’re like, “Is he 34 already?” Yeah. And has three kids and a ghost town.

[00:44:12] Doma: Yeah. 15 in the-

[00:44:14] Nathan: But I’m like, I’m obsessed about design and user experience and Apple and, you know, and they’re like, “Oh, yeah, no, we co-founded Electronic Arts and-” “… worked on the Lisa” and when, you know, they both worked at Apple and all this stuff, and I’m like, “I’m obsessed with everything you do.”

[00:44:26] Doma: Yeah.

[00:44:27] Nathan: And so again, people think about these partnerships as, like, transactional in some way, and it’s like-

[00:44:32] Doma: Yeah

[00:44:32] Nathan: no, it’s like

[00:44:33] Doma: filled with joy. And, and it’s… Exactly. And, and that again kinda comes back to this nature of uncompetitiveness in this industry- Right … ’cause, like, if you think about it, almost in every industry, like, if it’s corporate, I mean, sorry, Mackenzie, but it’s just like- … who cares about going into these, like, industry meetings?

[00:44:49] Doma: Like- Right … it’s so boring in the, the suits and all that, and, like, even in, like, entertainment, like, a lot of people, like, they don’t really help each other, to be honest. Right. I mean, some might, and of course there’s, like, smaller groups [00:45:00] of creatives supporting each other, but, like, it’s not exactly the most friendly industry.

[00:45:04] Doma: And then, like, even science, like, it’s crazy how cutthroat that can be. Um- Yeah, you

[00:45:08] Nathan: wouldn’t expect that at all. Like, we’re all trying to just further humanity through science- Exactly … and, and no, it, like, it’s a big deal of who gets credit for what.

[00:45:16] Doma: And, and, and the difference is the incentives, right? Mm.

[00:45:18] Doma: ‘Cause the incentives are not aligned there, um, because it’s, it’s, it’s a pie with, like- Right …

[00:45:23] Nathan: expertise … there’s only so much grant money or whatever

[00:45:26] Doma: else. Exactly. And so if you get that,

[00:45:27] Nathan: it means

[00:45:27] Doma: I don’t get that. Um, like doctors too, like my dad is a doctor, and, like, the amount of attack he got throughout his career progressing as a neurosurgeon in Hungary is, like- I didn’t understand.

[00:45:38] Doma: I never understood it ’cause I never was in, in that kind of world. And here, because the incentives are aligned, everybody’s friendly and supporting each other, so that’s amazing. And I think it’s an underrated thing, ’cause like it literally like come back to wellbeing. Like it- … lowers your stress levels while you’re working.

[00:45:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:45:53] Doma: And you can also just, like, have fun.

[00:45:56] Nathan: Yeah, I mean, part of my job is to sit in a room [00:46:00] and talk to people that I really like and enjoy, you know, and you’re like-

[00:46:03] Doma: Exactly …

[00:46:03] Nathan: you know, talk about- That’s, that’s fun … how to live a meaningful life. And it’s like, well- Yeah … design it that

[00:46:08] Doma: way. That’s, that is exactly.

[00:46:10] Doma: I mean, to me and, like, personally, um, that of course is the biggest value- Mm-hmm … of all of this, to, like, learn from these people. Sometimes it gets even, like, a little bit too tricky, ’cause I’m like, “Ah, I should be following all this advice,” right? Like I should be perfectly happy and, like, have all these habits and all that, and, and I, I don’t always do it.

[00:46:29] Doma: Right. So it can get into a bit of a self-critical thing as well.

[00:46:32] Nathan: I mean, that’s just human nature. Now, as you’ve spent time around all of these people and, and all of that, is there anything that you, that you have learned or changed about, you know, like… Yeah, how, how you’ve changed as a person or something that you’ve implemented based on one of them?

[00:46:47] Doma: Yeah, I mean, I, I would hope so. Um- Almost every one of them. And you know what’s interesting is that, uh, there’s this interesting thing that happens that almost [00:47:00] every times I think I am becoming a certain person in my life or I need to make certain changes-

[00:47:06] Nathan: Okay …

[00:47:06] Doma: that’s when the, the right client comes in.

[00:47:09] Doma: So I think Matthew made me much more authentic. I mean, he’s just- Mm … the most aut- authentic- Oh my gosh, yes … person I know. Bill and Dave, I mean, first they just helped me redesign my career. Uh, but with this new book, How to Live a Meaningful Life, it’s much more focused on designing meaning moments and kind of like a mindful approach and, like, just appreciating beauty and presence in the moment.

[00:47:30] Doma: And, and that’s what I needed to, um, introduce. Um, you know, of course, with Arthur, like, uh, I was working on my happiness at the time. So, like, it’s interesting that, um, yeah, every time the new client kind of brings in exactly what I need. And I’m not saying I always perfectly- Right … implement them, but there’s always, like, some support that I think helps me become better.

[00:47:52] Nathan: Yeah. I love that. All right, what’s the next one in your list?

[00:47:57] Doma: The, the last one, which of course is, [00:48:00] you know, it’s something that then you can talk about for, for hours and you can do for years is, is, is actually to build your, um, organic channels. Mm. Um, and by organic I mostly mean like social media, newsletter.

[00:48:13] Doma: It can also be a podcast or online courses and all that. Um, and, and perfect those, not just build, but perfect those. And specifically, and this is where maybe it makes sense to talk about newsletters, um, the newsletter is the only channel that you fully own. Right. You have the email addresses as opposed to social media, which you’re kind of up to the algorithm.

[00:48:34] Doma: Um, and having those email addresses and knowing As a thought leader, I mean, one of the great things I think with these thought leader, um, newsletters, uh, which it would be actually interesting to, like, compare, like, thought leader newsletters to, like, other creator newsletters and then other random newsletters, like the open rates and the click rates.

[00:48:55] Doma: But what I’ve seen, and maybe it’s just, like, my amazing work, is that, like, we [00:49:00] cons-constantly, like, ba-basically with every client get, like, say, like, average fifty percent open rate, sometimes even much more. And what that means is that, like, basically every second audience member of yours will read whatever you have to send out that week on a weekly basis, um, right?

[00:49:19] Doma: So that is, in this fragmented attention economy, that’s, that’s very powerful. Um, ’cause, like, with, with social media, even if it gets, like, huge reach a lot of times, like the depth of that is not as much as, like, a newsletter- Right …which is kind of like a written thing. Like, you go a little bit deeper.

[00:49:35] Doma: Hopefully, people take time to, to actually read it. Um, so yeah, building those, I would say is, is number seven. And then, of course, then it gets really nuanced and like, okay, uh, what is the newsletter we’re building? What’s the purpose of it? How it’s gonna look? What’s the value, the frequency, and all those, you know, questions that we need to figure out there, and same with the other channels.

[00:49:56] Nathan: Is there a thought leader who you think does a really good job of [00:50:00] translating, like, their ideas and who they are authentically into a newsletter? ‘Cause a lot of people can do it in a pretty generic way, and then there’s a few people I think who just absolutely nail it, where you’re like, “Okay, I’m reading their voice,” or, “I feel like this is unique to them.”

[00:50:13] Doma: Yeah. From my clients, um, who I would highlight is Bob Waldinger. Mm-hmm. Uh, again, the, the last director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development. Uh, what we did with him is we basically created this concept where it’s called Hidden in Plain Sight, um, which is kinda like a zen phrase.

[00:50:30] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:50:31] Doma: And, um, we have a meditation, like a very simple meditation, nothing complex.

[00:50:37] Doma: So for even people who don’t usually meditate, it’s, it’s not even always a meditation, sometimes just like a small exercise. We record him, um, on video, um, and of course audio, and people can watch. Like, that’s the first thing they get, a, a, a video on YouTube that they can watch as part of every newsletter.

[00:50:55] Doma: It goes out Monday, 7:00 AM. It’s something you can use basically every day of the [00:51:00] week. Mm-hmm. And because he’s a Zen priest, I mean, of course it’s very natural that he would walk you through, um, a meditation. And, and of course we add like some, some stories, some Zen coins, and then bring in his, um, research as well, either from the Harvard study or other research.

[00:51:17] Doma: So it’s, it’s really combining all of his different angles of his life. So I think it’s, it’s very unique and authentic, and the feedback we’ve received so far is amazing. Uh, and, and we were just talking with some of his premium subscribers, and they were like, they, they love it. Like, it’s actually like now, like ’cause he used to have like a normal kind of just like wrote about something and then there was a premium subscription, um, which people got like some audio and Dharma talks and all that.

[00:51:45] Doma: Now we just switched to like one, and it’s like not premium. It’s all free, and they’re like, “Oh my God, this is much better than the premium was.” Mm. Um, so, so I feel like that’s, uh, that’s pretty strong, and it just has to do with like, again, what we always have to do is [00:52:00] understand the voice, understand who they are, and, and we had to create this in a way.

[00:52:04] Doma: If it was just newsletter that everybody… Like most newsletters, people just run through, uh, and it’s completely fine. I mean, it’s a, it’s a fast-paced world. But when you get a meditation to slow down- Mm … like you really need to slow down. And, and that’s the whole idea. Like, yes, we, we are creating in the online world, but with Bob, we want people to slow down, um, and take a step back.

[00:52:28] Nathan: Yeah. I like that. I think it, it being uniquely them and, uh, you know, and having it where it’s not just like, “Oh, I’m explaining a bunch of stuff,” but there’s actually a Cohen in there, and yeah, having that thought. Okay, so you’ve had a behind-the-scenes look into a bunch of these massive book launches, and you get to see, like, what works today in marketing.

[00:52:47] Nathan: Let’s say you had a friend, like just hypothetically we’ll call him Nathan. And he had a book coming out in the next six months or so. What are some of the things that you’ve seen that you’d recommend either he do or [00:53:00] anyone else launching a book where you’re like, “Hey, this is what actually works, uh, and that I would try on additional launches”?

[00:53:05] Doma: I love to think of the kind of phases of book launch in, like, three phases. So there’s the awareness phase, like you want people to know about the book. Um, there’s the sales phase, where you actually sell them the book. And then there’s the word-of-mouth phase, which is really the most important, when they start talking about the book to others as well.

[00:53:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:23] Doma: Um, and I learned a lot of this, like, through the first book launch I’ve done. I… Well, there was, you know, no previous experiences with anything you do the first time. So I actually learned a lot from your podcast even. Yeah. Uh, like you had, uh, Tim Ferriss on, um- He’s a legend. He’s so good … super, super helpful, and I talked to him, uh, ’cause you connected us.

[00:53:43] Doma: And then, um, of course, you know, Tim Ferriss and James Clear and all those guys, like, they’ve done some incredible launches that I kind of then codified and, like, now I have this, like, basically big book launch Bible, uh, document and auto deck. [00:54:00] And so I think the, the awareness phase, which is interesting in the context of what we’ve been talking about with the, the organic, um, content and that you create, warming up the audience to your book launch, uh, is a really important thing that I think works well.

[00:54:15] Doma: Newsletter is especially helpful in that. And, and there’s a couple people like Ryan Holiday who do, who do this really well, where, like, they release certain excerpts- Mm … from the book, um, as part of their newsletter, and then it’s like, “Hey, do you want more? Pre-order the book.” Right? Right. Uh, so it’s a smart strategy to create some anticipation.

[00:54:34] Doma: Now, the key there, of course, is, like, not to give away too much ’cause, like, you can also give away too much, and then, like, it doesn’t… It’s not no longer as interesting. Uh, but Tim Ferriss actually said an interesting thing there was, like, you actually want people to read your book, not to buy your book.

[00:54:49] Nathan: Yeah. ‘

[00:54:50] Doma: Cause one happy reader will tell five others who will buy it. So in that sense, giving away too much may not actually be that much of a problem to your newsletter list- Right … ’cause if [00:55:00] they love these concepts and they say like, “Hey, Nathan has this amazing book coming out, buy it,” then not, maybe not an issue if they don’t buy it, right?

[00:55:08] Doma: So I would say that’s, that’s number one, kinda teasing the content. And part of that is also testing the content, right? Like what, um, you can go into like details even with like chapter titles. Like you can A/B test chapter titles in your newsletter. Um- Oh, yeah … right? Um, and, and that, that has a, a huge impact.

[00:55:26] Doma: And then the other thing with like, you know, what James Clear did, like the free chapter lead magnet. Um, so there’s, there’s a bunch of those kind of pre-warming things you can do. I also think that kind of going back to creator partnerships Setting those up in time are really important- Mm-hmm … uh, especially now, like, podcasts are booked out so far in advance that it’s really important to, like- Is that, like-

[00:55:49] Doma: nail them …

[00:55:49] Nathan: two to three months or, like, six to eight months in advance?

[00:55:52] Doma: I mean, I, I… We, we did have, for example, with Bob, we’re, like, booking Matt Robinson, like, the first date is, like, [00:56:00] October now.

[00:56:01] Nathan: Right. That

[00:56:01] Doma: they

[00:56:01] Nathan: have available. We’re recording this in mid-June.

[00:56:03] Doma: Yeah, exactly. So you’re talking four

[00:56:04] Nathan: months or more-

[00:56:05] Doma: Yeah, um-

[00:56:06] Nathan: even for the first option to be on the show.

[00:56:08] Doma: And then, you know, what James Clear talks about always is the, this concentrated strike approach where, like, you need to drop all the podcasts in a two-week window of your publication. So, like, you really need to be strategic and think ahead of, like, “Okay, how am I gonna convince every podcaster to actually drop in that window?”

[00:56:26] Doma: Like, it’s better to probably record in advance and maybe agree on a date-

[00:56:30] Nathan: Right …

[00:56:31] Doma: together. So I think that’s, uh, that’s an important one.

[00:56:34] Nathan: Is there anything for… Like, you’ve seen a bunch of these pitches that then get on the biggest shows. Yeah. If you were to take, like, a Mel Robbins or, or a, um, you know, other shows at that scale, what are the things that make the biggest difference to get on, on the show?

[00:56:50] Nathan: Is it the topic? Is it the, like, the influence and credibility of, you know, or the reach? Like, what are the things that, that matter the most in that pitch?

[00:56:58] Doma: So I think, [00:57:00] um, every podcast has their own criteria, which, um, I mean, at the end of the day, they’re very similar. I mean, like, the, the host’s interest in your content- Mm-hmm

[00:57:10] Doma: of course, very important because they wanna be excited about stuff. Relationship to you, the growth potential, like, looking at your own audience and, like, their audience, like how much they love that content. Is it a fit? Mm-hmm. Um, so there’s a few of those factors, but I would say, like, some of those are not even in your control.

[00:57:27] Doma: Right. Um, and I think the most, number one most important thing that I’ve seen, and actually the reason why sometimes I feel like me pitching is maybe m- even more effective than if the publicist doing it, is the personality in those emails, in those pitches, right? Like, and, and- It’s not a, not a generic PR copy-paste.

[00:57:46] Doma: Exactly. Like- Because, like, you can sense when, when it’s a PR… And n- n-

[00:57:46] Nathan: nothing wrong with that,

[00:57:51] Doma: and you need that for volume. But when you have, like, you, you have one podcaster, like, y- you really wanna get on, and, and, and would [00:58:00] be super hard, clearly, ’cause they’re booked out, and they have all the big names. Like, write a super personal email.

[00:58:06] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:06] Doma: And I’ve s- I’ve seen that, like, I’ve got this feedback on my emails that, like, “This actually convinced me,” ’cause it was personal, and you connected the dots and all of that.

[00:58:15] Doma: So I would say, yeah, focus on that.

[00:58:17] Nathan: You’re putting that McKinsey level of effort into- Yeah. … into the podcast.

[00:58:20] Doma: Yeah, McKinsey, but also just, like, kind of going back to, like, the bottom-up, like curiosity- Yeah … about, like, there’s something, like, real there. There’s a, there’s a connection between the two people, and so how do you find that?

[00:58:32] Doma: And I think they do resonate to that, ’cause they’re also… I mean, I think Tim Ferriss and, and, and Rich Roll, they also talked about this, um, a couple times. Like, a lot of people are, like, tired of, like, just being the book promoters- Yeah … as podcasters. So how do you make it more personal, more engaging?

[00:58:48] Nathan: Is there a podcast that you’ve had one of your clients go on or that you’ve seen the, like, some of the behind-the-scenes numbers that had, like, a, a bigger spike in book sales or whatever [00:59:00] outcome you’re trying to create than expected?

[00:59:01] Doma: Yeah, I mean, Matt Robbins is insane. But

[00:59:03] Nathan: w- but we kind of expected that. Yeah. I mean, so it makes… It’s good to know that, like, her show delivers in, in sales.

[00:59:10] Doma: Yeah. Uh, well, another one is Hidden Brain we’ve seen-

[00:59:13] Nathan: Oh, yeah … work really well. That one, yeah.

[00:59:15] Doma: Um, yeah, I would say those, those two were, like, the, the outstanding- Yeah

[00:59:19] Doma: highlight ones. But sometimes you even, like… You, you can also think of this as, okay, there’s the concentrated strike. You wanna get the biggest names there.

[00:59:28] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:28] Doma: But maybe is there a way that we can get noticed in advance and maybe just go on a podcast that, like, you don’t even talk about the book? But, like, they’ll see Nathan, uh, this guy who talks about some super cool topics, has an interesting life, and then their, the, the, the podcasts you wanna get on, like, their bookers will see you-

[00:59:47] Nathan: Oh,

[00:59:47] Doma: okay

[00:59:47] Doma: and invite you because you were out there talking.

[00:59:50] Nathan: Do you feel like you’re starting to get a sense in the industry of, like, okay, what, who is influenced by whom? Or, like, you’re starting to see some network effects- Yeah,

[00:59:58] Doma: exactly.

[00:59:58] Nathan: Like, for instance- … if we get on this show, [01:00:00] it may be small, but that host is really well respected, or they share a booker with this much bigger show.

[01:00:06] Doma: Exactly.

[01:00:07] Nathan: Yeah. That’s interesting. I was leaving an event in LA, I don’t know, like, three weeks ago, and we’re waiting for our Uber, and Chelsea on my team just starts talking to the person next to us who’s also waiting for an Uber. Mm-hmm. And so we meet and say hi, and it’s like, “Oh, what do you do? Everyone Kit,” and he’s like, “Oh, I, uh, run podcast booking for, like, most of the biggest shows.”

[01:00:25] Nathan: You know, and you’re like, “Okay. Well, we’re gonna get in our Ubers,” you know? Wow. And I texted him and was like, “Hey, tell me a little more about what you’re doing.” And he called me and was like, “Hey, you know, on the off chance that you’re free right now, ’cause I know you’re sitting in an Uber,” like, “I, I watched you get in an Uber.

[01:00:38] Nathan: I got in mine.” And so for the next, like, 15 minutes, we just chatted. But it made me realize how much- Like this is an actual agency that handles bookings for Emma Gried and like a bunch of big, big shows. And, you know, you start to realize like, oh, it’s not just the host that’s doing all this. Yeah. Like they have a whole system, and they say, “Hey, here’s the [01:01:00] topics and the types of things we’re interested in, and who, here’s who’s not a good fit.”

[01:01:03] Nathan: And so there is like this right-hand person behind the scenes who’s like, who’s that filter gatekeeper, and you can actually get to know who that person is.

[01:01:12] Doma: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it’s the same with like, I guess the creative economy was the same with like actors and like a lot of like, you know, sports players and, and all that.

[01:01:20] Doma: Like when you’re a kid, you think all these people are just individuals who do their job, and it turns out they have like a staff of 15 doing- Yeah … everything for them. So it’s an interesting, you know, business kind of consideration, like how do you run a thought leader, a creator, a sports player?

[01:01:36] Nathan: Yeah. Was there anything else, uh, from the book launches that stood out that you were like, “Oh, I would make sure to do this on, on a launch”?

[01:01:43] Doma: I think bonuses Um, and lead magnets, um, are important. And then one thing that, uh, we’ve seen work well, uh, with Arthur, for example, we had his, um, book launch recently, his live event-

[01:01:56] Nathan: Yeah …

[01:01:57] Doma: um, where he just brought in a lot of his [01:02:00] friends and, uh, other big creators and thought leaders. Um, and it was, it was around meaning.

[01:02:08] Doma: Um, and then of course, there was a pitch to, you know, buy the book- Mm-hmm … uh, as part of that event. So

[01:02:14] Nathan: this is like a big virtual summit or live event.

[01:02:17] Doma: Yeah.

[01:02:17] Nathan: I believe that one was at Sage Studios in South Carolina. I go to that studio every year for a mastermind, and so it’s one of those things where- Nice

[01:02:25] Doma: I

[01:02:25] Nathan: think I was talking to Arthur’s team about it and, and, uh, I was like, “Oh, I know Barry and Blu who run run that studio,” and-

[01:02:32] Doma: Exactly. Yeah. So I mean, and, and that basically like is another example of like a funnel strategy in this business, right? Like, you create something that is for a bigger audience, um, top of the funnel, and then you turn, you give them value, and then you turn some of them into, in this case, book buyers.

[01:02:50] Doma: Right. But the same can be done with just social media, same can be done with like long form YouTube content, and then like the activation is buying the book or just a [01:03:00] lead magnet for your newsletter. Um, so it seems like this funnel thing is very popular- Yeah … uh, in the creator economy.

[01:03:08] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense.

[01:03:09] Nathan: Well, putting together a, a big live event is something that I’ve been thinking about doing for the Ladders of Wealth, and, uh, I’ve got some documents drawn up and all that, you know, and some plans there. Mainly because not only can you get a lot of friends to help promote it, right, in the partnership sense, but also it’s really good for driving paid ads too.

[01:03:27] Nathan: You know? Right. It can be this event that you can build up to, and there’s a reason to show up, and you know, it’s, it’s easier than just driving ads to a book.

[01:03:36] Doma: Yeah. That’s smart.

[01:03:37] Nathan: Okay. So we’ve talked about this a lot behind the scenes, but what are you doing with like Flowin as a business? Like how, how are you operating?

[01:03:44] Nathan: Where, where do you plan to take it?

[01:03:45] Doma: Good question. So yeah, it’s Fl- Flowin is my business, which is, um, basically a creative agency for thought leaders. Um, and what we do is, is basically content development and audience growth for [01:04:00] thought leaders. Mm-hmm. And, um, what that specifically means is we typically start with developing the strategy through these seven steps.

[01:04:08] Doma: Um, the brand is really important for thought leaders to keep the, keep that sacred, um, visually, um, and otherwise. And then we go into, okay, now we’re launching a book. So it’s a book launch or launching a newsletter maybe in support of a book launch. Um- Building a new social media presence, launching a podcast, launching an online course.

[01:04:28] Doma: So using all those channels that we, we talked about as part of the ecosystem strategy. And so we, we manage these, we create a content for the thought leader and, um, try to make sure that they really can, as I said, focus on their craft and we handle everything else. Um, so it’s kind of a one size fits all situation.

[01:04:46] Doma: Yeah. In terms of Um, you know how we, how I run it, um, I started alone and then, like, I hired my own brother and, and another guy. So, um, basically it’s the three of us, uh, full time right now. Nice. But I’ve, [01:05:00] like, twelve to fifteen contractors who help out with the different pieces of expertise. Um, I’m thinking, you know, what is the right model?

[01:05:08] Doma: Is this contractor model is, uh, the best, or do I maybe have, you know, five people full time and that’s how I run it? And in terms of scaling, I mean, that’s another, um, maybe countercultural thing that I have in my mind. I don’t wanna scale it too much- Yeah … ’cause the most beautiful thing that people probably recognize just through this conversation is that I can work with these, uh, amazing thought leaders, um, one-on-one.

[01:05:32] Doma: And if I, if I had twenty clients as opposed to five that I have right now, um, all of a sudden that becomes much more transactional. Right. Uh, and so these one-on-one interactions and even like, you know, my own creativity, like how do I come up with ideas? Like, I couldn’t do that for twenty people, right? But maybe there’s a little bit more, more scale in it, um, for sure.

[01:05:54] Doma: So I’m, I’m thinking about that. But fundamentally, like, the reason why I do it is because, one, I wanna have [01:06:00] an impact o-on people and their well-being, um, through these, uh, amazing thought leaders, and I, I wanna have fun. Yeah. It’s fun, uh, working on this content. Um, you know, as, as I said, like, I love movies. I– maybe we can create thought leader movies in the future.

[01:06:16] Doma: Um, maybe we can write our own books. Um, so I’m just… I just, I just wanna enjoy the ride. And, and of course, there’s an element of like flexibility too, which is pretty cool that, you know, I’m, I’m here recording with you in New York, uh, but next week I’m going to Hungary, do a little sailing and surfing in my home.

[01:06:33] Doma: Yeah. And like there’s– I’m not tied into one place. Um, so I would love to keep that flexibility for the future.

[01:06:40] Nathan: Yeah. I love it. Well, I feel like we often hear from the big forward-facing name, and you ask them questions about, like, what’s actually happening behind the scenes, and they’re like, “Yeah,” and they give some high-level answer ’cause they don’t actually know.

[01:06:52] Nathan: Right. And so I love having you on where we can talk about, like, here’s what actually works, here’s the behind the scenes on all these big launches and everything else. [01:07:00] So if people want to either follow your content as you’re writing on LinkedIn, um, and, and all of that, or potentially work with you, what would be the best way to reach out?

[01:07:09] Doma: Yeah. So, um, our website is flowin.consulting, um, and my, you know, people can reach out on my email as well, doma, D-O-M-A, @flowin.consulting, um, directly. And in my LinkedIn, I’m under Domonkos Eros, E-R-O-S-S. Uh, it’s a, it’s a complicated name, but- Yeah … I guess they can find it in the show notes. That’s my, that’s my LinkedIn.

[01:07:33] Doma: So yeah, just reach out there.

[01:07:35] Nathan: Sounds good. Well, it’s been a ton of fun working with you on a, a bunch of amazing newsletters over the last couple years, and, uh, thanks for coming on the show.

[01:07:42] Doma: Yeah, likewise. Thank you, Nathan.

[01:07:43] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:07:52] Nathan: I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.