I Asked a Speaking Coach to Roast My Biggest Speech | 137

[00:00:00] Nathan: This is the most unique episode I’ve ever done on this podcast. I brought in my speaking coach, Mike Paquione, back on the show to roast the keynote that I gave at Craft & Commerce.

[00:00:09] Mike: Wait, why did you have that big pause at the

[00:00:11] Nathan: end? I’m not sure. Okay. Okay.

[00:00:12] Mike: A lot of people fall into the trap of both hands have to do the same thing.

[00:00:18] Nathan: In this episode, Mike doesn’t hold back.

[00:00:21] Mike: This is actually a little bit of a miss. It doesn’t end up mattering, but

[00:00:27] Nathan: Seeing a talk critiqued in real time with commentary from an expert coach will help you learn what makes a great talk in a whole new way.

[00:00:34] Mike: Your instinct is to make a story here too, but it’s like you can only have so many stories.

[00:00:37] I want the audience to forget that it’s a speech.

[00:00:40] Nathan: Little things like the Stephen Colbert move, where you show the joke on the slide, but you don’t say it out loud. The moment I was like, “Oh, maybe this will get a laugh,” and then it didn’t. You also get to hear about some of the chaos happening backstage that nobody knows about.

[00:00:52] They have their hand out, and they are stopping me from going on stage. So join me for this behind-the-scenes look at the biggest keynote I’ve ever delivered

[00:01:03] Mike: It is usually the Nathan Barry Show, and that is where you find this on your podcast feed. However, we changed this up a little bit this time. Nathan just yesterday did his annual keynote releasing products at Craft and Commerce, and we’re gonna break this down.

[00:01:18] But whereas it’s always the Nathan Barry Show, today It’s the Mike Pacchione Show. That’s right. So we’re gonna talk about what was good, what looked good to other people and secretly was less good.

[00:01:30] Nathan: A little chaos.

[00:01:30] Mike: Yeah. A little chaos. I’ve had the privilege of coaching Nathan. This is the eighth time- Yeah

[00:01:36] for these keynotes, and I’ve just seen such an improvement, so

[00:01:39] Nathan: we’re gonna break it down.

[00:01:40] Mike: Let’s, uh, let’s start right here. Of our very special announcement. Got Haley on the screen. You’re, I don’t know, 10 seconds from coming out. And we have never done anything quite like this before, so please welcome to the stage my friend, our CEO, Nathan Barry.

[00:01:57] Nathan: So there’s applause. There’s Nathan. No me.

[00:02:00] Mike: We’re just like- Oh, there we go You notice Haley’s, like, little, like…

[00:02:04] Nathan: Good luck. Did you hear her “Good luck”?

[00:02:07] Mike: Yeah. So there’s- Amazing, because as an audience member, everybody thought she was being funny. Secretly, she’s… Or are you telling me actually she’s like, “Good luck”?

[00:02:16] Nathan: Well, I think there’s a couple things. She got, I mean, she managed to get an audience laugh even before I come out, which is great for setting the tone. Um, but the chaos is going b- on behind the scenes. The reason is she intros me, and I don’t come out. Which is, as an emcee, that has to be your worst nightmare.

[00:02:31] Mike: Again, uh, um, uh, also, oh, something I should have mentioned earlier.

[00:02:35] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So we’re doing a live stream of the event. And so there’s, like, 3,000 people registered to watch the live stream of this keynote. But the previous speaker ends, like, eight minutes early- … without people realizing. Like, there’s just this chaos.

[00:02:52] Like, we- he’s about 90 seconds from ending when people realize, “Oh, he is about to end.” And it’s way early, and we’re, we’re ahead of schedule, and we’re never, like-

[00:03:01] Mike: Nobody in any event is ahe- ahead of schedule ever

[00:03:05] Nathan: But we are. So what happens is two things happen at the same time. First, we’re ahead of schedule, and then second, right as we’re trying to, about to go live, the internet and the live stream start to go out.

[00:03:17] And so everybody, they’re all in their headsets, the whole AV crew. Our AV crew is incredible for this event. But they, they’re all like, “Stall, stall.” And so on the speaker monitors in front of Haley, they put in the notes, like, below her intro, like, “Stall.”

[00:03:30] Mike: Oh my gosh, stop.

[00:03:31] Nathan: Which she does, I think, kind of. Maybe she adds 45 seconds.

[00:03:36] And so then I’m backstage, and there’s someone right there who’s, like, helping with the curtain, being like, “Okay, wait, yeah, now you go.” And they’re like, they have their hand out, and they are stopping me from going on stage. And it’s this really nice woman who I don’t wanna, like, just push past, you know?

[00:03:52] And they’re like, “You gotta stall. Like, you can’t go out yet,” and all that. And I’m like, “I’m not gonna leave Haley, like, just hanging out on the stage waiting.” You know, I’m like, “This is way better if I go out.” Anyway, so I go out. No music right? Which we rehearsed- Oh

[00:04:06] Mike: my gosh, that is why. ‘Cause we did a whole th- the night before you’re like, “Hey- Can you come up with a joke for me?

[00:04:12] Nathan: Yep.

[00:04:13] Mike: Which I outsourced to Katie Day, and I think she came up with something good. And

[00:04:17] Nathan: I think it would’ve done well. I was gonna do a slightly different version of it. Just to, well, to tell that story too, because I think it’s funny. Oh. So I always walk out to a Taylor Swift song. W- the team chose Wildest Dreams, but the section that they chose is, the line goes, “He’s so tall and handsome as hell,” something something.

[00:04:34] Right? And I, and I come out there. And so Steph on our team is like, “That is heard very clearly. I think you have to at least say a like, ‘Oh thanks, Taylor,’ you know, something to reference it.” And so we’re like trying to workshop a joke, and it’s like okay, if we can get a first laugh right here, that’s fantastic.

[00:04:50] Like years ago, I think it was the very first Craft in Commerce, I didn’t realize… They kept asking me, like, “Pick a walkout song.” I’m like, “I don’t, I don’t know.” And so total surprise to me, I walked out to Shake It Off by Taylor Swift. Thanks, uh, Barrett and Alexis, for choosing that one. Wait, like

[00:05:05] Mike: backstage they just, it was like, ”

[00:05:06] Nathan: We’re gonna play this song”?

[00:05:07] They knew. They just didn’t tell me.

[00:05:08] Mike: Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[00:05:08] Nathan: Uh, and, ’cause they were like, “Oh, if you can’t be bothered to pick a song, then like we’re gonna pick a song.”

[00:05:14] Mike: Barrett has to turn it into a lesson, of course.

[00:05:16] Nathan: Yeah. Yes, exactly. And so, but I walked out and the crowd was super welcoming and all of that. And so I just said, “It seems like you all are just as excited as I am that Taylor Swift is back on Spotify.”

[00:05:28] Which got like a great laugh.

[00:05:30] Mike: That’s gotta be tough, yeah.

[00:05:30] Nathan: And so it was like, okay, we gotta have a similar moment. And so what I was going to say, settle on, is something like, “Thanks, Taylor. I mean, I’m tall, but I’m not that tall.” And, um, you know, leave the handsome as hell part alone.

[00:05:44] Mike: Ah.

[00:05:45] Nathan: Um, but that didn’t even happen.

[00:05:47] And so I walked out, and now I’m like, “I still have to stall.” So the next like 45 seconds of the video is me just stalling before I start to talk.

[00:05:56] Mike: Good morning, everybody. I wondered. It’s so good to see a totally packed house. This is awesome.

[00:06:03] Nathan: This is just stalling. Where are my

[00:06:04] Mike: slides? Where are my slides? I see so many faces

[00:06:05] Nathan: that have come- Oh, there’s no speaker notes up.

[00:06:07] There’s so many events that we’ve done. There’s no

[00:06:08] Mike: slides.

[00:06:09] Nathan: Um. Like, so even if I wanted to start, I couldn’t. … check out.

[00:06:14] Mike: You see I look down at the, the- Should

[00:06:15] Nathan: we dive in? Let’s do this.

[00:06:17] Mike: Oh, look, look how dramatic I’m being, ’cause I’m comfortable.

[00:06:21] Nathan: You ever have those emails that you write-

[00:06:23] Mike: Okay, you can pause it.

[00:06:23] Okay, actually, I, here’s, here’s, uh, I don’t want this to be Mike teaching, but I will do that here.

[00:06:28] Nathan: Do it. ‘

[00:06:29] Mike: Cause I was, I was thinking about th- there’s something that happened … Oh, you know what it was, it’s because you all, and I mean this nicely, are … Every year there’s like … I think that’ll be done in time to talk about.

[00:06:44] Nathan: Yes.

[00:06:45] Mike: And so what our, our cycle of working together is usually loosely like 10 days to two weeks before, I get a, a Loom that’s you just saying, “I know this is crappy-

[00:06:57] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:06:57] Mike: help me figure out what’s good in this.” Yes. And then, uh, th- within seven days there’s like, “Here’s an actual, we’ll talk about this,” and, “What do you think of this?”

[00:07:06] and, “What do you think of this?” ‘

[00:07:07] Nathan: Cause the weird thing is most speakers, you work with them, like for a period of time. They nail it, they develop a talk- Yeah … it’s tied to the book. They do it for three years straight.

[00:07:15] Mike: Yeah.

[00:07:15] Nathan: Whereas when you and I work together, we’re writing a new talk every time.

[00:07:18] Mike: Right, a new talk every time, and there’s no chance that you have three weeks to rehearse it.

[00:07:22] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:23] Mike: So I think we met on Friday, you’re delivering this Wednesday, and I think it was Monday, you’re like, “Yeah, this is like 75% new.” Like, like most of it has changed since we talked.

[00:07:32] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:33] Mike: Which- You know, to each their own, but it’s not, it’s not what I would say is, like, the advisable thing

[00:07:40] Nathan: Ideal conditions.

[00:07:42] Mike: And what I was thinking about that I think is helpful for people to hear, so, uh, there’s this Canadian astronaut, um, why am I blanking on his name? Chris something. First Canadian astronaut in outer space, and I read his book, which is really good, even though I don’t remember his last name, and he’s got this concept in there that he’s applying to jobs, but it also applies to speeches.

[00:08:01] The concept is be a zero. And he says, “Okay, when you’re starting a new job, you can be a negative one, a zero, or a plus one.” And obviously nobody wants to be a negative one. Everybody wants to be a plus one. So what most people do is they try to impress immediately, but then they wind up, like, skipping steps, and in trying to be a plus one, they actually become a minus one.

[00:08:21] So I think the same thing is true for speeches. I, I also think you can be, like, a minus two with a speech. So his whole thing is, like, aim to be a zero. Like, just aim to get the job done. I think for anybody who, uh, whatever the chaos you feel is, the slides didn’t work, the live stream hasn’t started because Simon was unnecessarily concise.

[00:08:41] Like, whatever that is, in that moment, you need to lose the, the drive for perfectionism- Mm … to be perfect. Just be a zero. Like, be okay with being… Zero doesn’t mean bad.

[00:08:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:08:53] Mike: It just means, like, at least be good, and let’s not turn this into a disaster because Nathan can’t fake being calm. You know? Like-

[00:09:04] Nathan: Well, what’s interesting is it ended up being a reset moment for me-

[00:09:07] Mike: Mm

[00:09:07] Nathan: where I came out, and it was like, instead of being freaked out about how, like, 10 seconds earlier someone was telling me, like, “No, you can’t go out yet,” and I’m like, “No, I’m going to.” Yeah, yeah. You know, people are like, “Stall,” and you know, it’s chaos backstage. And I know that the live stream isn’t working, and I know all of this stuff.

[00:09:22] But instead, like, you know, of like, okay, if I can stall even for 45 seconds or something, it was like this reset moment for me. And so hopefully it came across to the audience of like, wow. It, it’s like you just come out and, like, the, to your point of being a zero, you’re just like, “I’m here. I’m there. Like, I’m present with all of you.”

[00:09:38] Mike: I had no idea. And, like, the- I guess this wouldn’t be negative one, but maybe negative half-

[00:09:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:09:45] Mike: would’ve been, “Hey, who knows how to pronounce Boise? Who flew in here from the furthest away?” Right. Like, stuff like that.

[00:09:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:52] Mike: Doesn’t sink the speech, but it kind of tells the audience, like, “Hey, you got a cliche coming.”

[00:09:56] Nathan: Okay, there’s another cliche that I’m curious how it landed for you. We talked about this a little bit, um, on one of our calls. Y- people always say, like, “Oh, this is Nathan’s Steve Jobs moment.”

[00:10:06] Mike: Yeah.

[00:10:07] Nathan: Right? And, like, does he have the sneakers and the turtleneck? ‘Cause you know. And I realized that I was falling into, like, presenter voice- Yeah

[00:10:16] and all of that, and I was really trying to get out of that. And I think the thing that I said to you and Katie on one of our calls was like, “Okay, help me get into, like … Like, what I wanna convey is just your friend Nathan-” Yeah … “he’s a creator. He has written some books like you have. He built a software company for you, and he’s j- he just kind of wants to sit o- like, sit across from you at the coffee table and be like, ‘Hey, here’s the things that I made.'”

[00:10:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. “I’d love to show it to you,” versus, “And today,” you know- Yeah … or, like, whatever else.

[00:10:45] Mike: We are pleased to announce three new products. Yeah.

[00:10:48] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. But in rehearsal, I kept slipping into- Mm … like, speaker voice.

[00:10:54] Mike: Speaker guy, yeah.

[00:10:55] Nathan: Yeah. How did it, how did it land in the, in the talk?

[00:11:00] Mike: I, I can, I can see a little of what you’re saying with the opening story.

[00:11:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:06] Mike: So I think, I think the opening story is … No, I’m gonna do … The opening story is two different parts. So there’s the, there’s the- Do you wanna just play it? Yeah, let’s, let’s play it.

[00:11:16] Nathan: Important enough that you write them a week in advance and you have time to tweak and edit each little detail. See, this part feels a little speaker guy.

[00:11:24] But they’re so important- Yeah … that you don’t dare schedule it, because you have to be the one to hit send yourself. But when it actually comes time to hit send, it’s not just a matter of like, “Oh, it’s 10:00 AM. Let’s go hit, hit send.”

[00:11:37] Mike: Yeah, that’s less speaker guy there.

[00:11:37] Nathan: Then you go to

[00:11:38] Mike: it. Like, that’s

[00:11:38] Nathan: good.

[00:11:38] You hover over the send button, and you think and you wait, and it’s like this nervous moment.

[00:11:48] ‘Cause you have no idea what the response is gonna

[00:11:49] Mike: be Wait, why did you have that big pause there? That’s just I don’t know what to say?

[00:11:52] Nathan: In 2012,

[00:11:53] Mike: I- I’m not sure … wrote a marketing book. Okay. And it changed my life. I was trying to play up

[00:11:56] Nathan: the, like- It was the

[00:11:56] Mike: launch- Yeah … you

[00:11:57] Nathan: don’t know what’s gonna happen

[00:11:57] of my book, The App Design Handbook, and it went out to my entire email list.

[00:12:02] Mike: This part gets a lot better, and there’s something that I love that you do up here.

[00:12:04] Nathan: Of 798 people.

[00:12:06] Mike: 798, is that what you- Yeah … you see that?

[00:12:08] Nathan: But that stress

[00:12:08] Mike: is still there. So this specific number is fantastic.

[00:12:11] Nathan: So I hit send. It’s

[00:12:12] Mike: true.

[00:12:12] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:12] Mike: That was the, that was the exact number.

[00:12:14] Nathan: And there were two questions on my mind: first, was anyone gonna buy? And second, if I was lucky enough that one of those 798 people was going to buy, how long am I gonna have to wait? I thought you were gonna

[00:12:25] Mike: wait an eternity.

[00:12:27] Nathan: Well, the answer is just three. Okay, pause it

[00:12:30] Mike: for a second.

[00:12:30] What do you mean,

[00:12:32] Nathan: uh, like-

[00:12:33] Mike: I thought-

[00:12:35] Nathan: Like I have to wait

[00:12:35] Mike: a long- … you have 798 people on the list. Like, not everybody’s on their email every hour of the day- Right … let alone, like, “Cool, I’ll buy this for 179.”

[00:12:43] Nathan: Right.

[00:12:43] Mike: I thought this was gonna be like Nathan and- So yeah, it

[00:12:45] Nathan: was building up to, like, I had to wait four hours or- Yeah

[00:12:48] 90 minutes or whatever, and it was three.

[00:12:50] Mike: Yeah.

[00:12:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:52] Mike: I don’t know if that’s bad or good, but, uh, it was interesting. It was

[00:12:55] Nathan: interesting. I mean, you know, in the other episode we were talking about tension.

[00:12:58] Mike: Yeah.

[00:12:58] Nathan: Right? I was trying to build a little bit of tension. Yeah. But then I, I don’t know, maybe it released it immediately or…

[00:13:03] Mike: The number of minutes was three. It’s… Well, okay, listen, I can wordsmith it a little bit. So I think, I… Yeah, here’s what you could do. You, we could, we could go in your brain even a little bit more, which is, like, 798 people. Okay, well, I don’t know if everybody’s in America, so… And I’m in Boise and it’s 3:00, so a lot of people are out of work.

[00:13:22] Nathan: Right, like, run through that.

[00:13:23] Mike: I might be… I didn’t know it, but three minutes later my life was gonna change.

[00:13:27] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. The downside of these talks is that I never know him again. Yeah.

[00:13:33] Mike: All right.

[00:13:33] Nathan: The first sale came in, and it was for $179 for the full package that honestly I didn’t think anyone would buy.

[00:13:40] I just did it as, like, a decoy price thing so that the cheaper package- That’s

[00:13:43] Mike: so good … looked

[00:13:44] Nathan: like a better deal. The decoy

[00:13:44] Mike: price thing.

[00:13:45] Nathan: Uh, but that was the first sale. That was just all I

[00:13:46] Mike: lived.

[00:13:47] Nathan: I was so ecstatic, but then I looked at who purchased And it was a designer at 37signals, the legendary product firm.

[00:13:57] Now, first I’d followed this company and everything they’d built, and I used their product- This is so good … and I’m obsessed with them. But second, I had actually applied to work here a year earlier and did not get the job. Which in hindsight, I think it worked out better that I didn’t get the job, but, um-

[00:14:12] Mike: Yeah, unnecessary

[00:14:13] I had

[00:14:13] Nathan: no idea

[00:14:13] Mike: that someone from 37signals- Okay. I mean, it’s not a big deal, but yeah …

[00:14:16] Nathan: would be the one to

[00:14:16] Mike: taught me those 700 emails Right, but, yeah. No, the, the script did not have that in there, and I-

[00:14:18] Nathan: Made it onto the list. But those sales kept rolling in. So first it was $12,000 in the first day, and then $19,000 in the first week.

[00:14:27] Mike: I kinda loved that it was

[00:14:28] Nathan: double zeros. But there’s something else that surprised me about this. Mm.

[00:14:29] Mike: Before the, whatever

[00:14:30] Nathan: the first price was. It was 2012 when everyone was talking about social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, right? That’s where all the growth and everything was happening. But when I looked at the numbers and the attribution, email sold more than every other channel combined.

[00:14:43] Mike: Okay, let me ask you a question here, ’cause in the version that I saw, you had- There’s two

[00:14:48] Nathan: more slides

[00:14:48] Mike: there. Well, no, in the version I saw, though, you had coffee with your friend Ron. Uh-huh. And he tells you, like, “Yeah, man. People who know this stuff know email’s better than Twitter.”

[00:14:57] Nathan: Yep.

[00:14:58] Mike: Is that cut for time?

[00:15:00] Is it cut ’cause you felt like people knew that already? Like, what-

[00:15:02] Nathan: Uh, mostly cut for time. Yeah. And so I did two run-throughs in, it’s on my farm, right? I have a guest house, and, uh, which you’re actually gonna stay in one of my guest houses in a couple of days. And so our whole growth leadership team is staying in, uh, the house next door.

[00:15:17] And so at, like, 11:00 PM the night before, we’ve got designers, we’ve got marketers, we’ve got, you know, we’re, like, staying there and doing these run-throughs. And we just cut everything that we felt like didn’t add to the story.

[00:15:29] Mike: Okay.

[00:15:29] Nathan: And that one was, like, not necessary.

[00:15:31] Mike: Yeah. It wasn’t a bad story.

[00:15:34] Nathan: It was just like, is this essential?

[00:15:35] Mike: Yeah.

[00:15:36] Nathan: And we cut it. Now, the ironic thing is then as I’m ad-libbing, as I’m trying to not read the speaker notes- Yeah … I then end up adding some other things.

[00:15:46] Mike: But … But this is what happens when you don’t get to rehearse for three straight weeks.

[00:15:49] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. You

[00:15:50] Mike: know? Yeah. And that kicked off an obsession

[00:15:52] Nathan: with email best practices that eventually became- In hindsight, I

[00:15:54] Mike: would’ve done a different

[00:15:55] Nathan: graphic here

[00:15:56] Kit. Over the years, we’ve built it into a platform- Hmm. I would’ve done something about Kit … that now

[00:15:58] Mike: serves over 100,000 creators and entrepreneurs- Or, like, obsession with email, and then done all the- … to

[00:16:01] Nathan: turn their audience into a

[00:16:02] Mike: thriving business. But I thought of it way too late. Yeah.

[00:16:04] Nathan: And the model that we built Kit around

[00:16:05] Mike: is one where- Okay.

[00:16:06] So we’re gonna talk about the slides now. The slides are stupendous … the way a funnel works is you put attention in one end. My goodness.

[00:16:10] Nathan: And so that’s views, followers, traffic, and then revenue comes out the other end.

[00:16:14] Mike: Yeah, this is, uh, Charlie, our

[00:16:15] Nathan: creative director-

[00:16:16] Mike: Oh my gosh … who made this graphic. And this

[00:16:17] Nathan: applies to great content just as much as it does

[00:16:18] Mike: to conversion rates, click-through rates- Well, this is, like, the stuff that I always want to happen and have mostly given up.

[00:16:22] Like, there’s never, there never winds up being enough time to do things like this. Right. That user makes you $50 as a creator. But, like, that visual- I’m pretty sure that if that same user came from YouTube- First of all, like, higher perceived value ’cause of good design anyway, but, like, it illustrates exactly what you’re saying out loud.

[00:16:33] So even if you were screwing up- When you just look at the list of followers- But I don’t know what Nathan’s talking about, but that-

[00:16:37] Nathan: I understand it …

[00:16:37] Mike: yeah …

[00:16:38] Nathan: as a number. Because behind every email address is a person. Think of a stadium. 50,000 people. And at first glance, it’s just a crowd. You can see me smirk as I- Everybody blurs together.

[00:16:51] Mike: As the …

[00:16:52] Nathan: But if you were to focus on only one fan … Oh. Sorry, not like that. More like this. All right. Let’s pause

[00:16:59] Mike: that. Let’s pause that. ‘Cause I know that, that there was a … People didn’t want you to have the Coldplay thing.

[00:17:05] Nathan: I put that, I wrote in Slack, like, “Can I make this joke?” And the consensus was, “No, don’t make it.”

[00:17:12] But then Katie came back and was like, “I actually like the joke.” And we went back, and you were like, “I like the joke, too.”

[00:17:18] Mike: I think it’s … Yeah, it’s just such a good example of … That it’s … What it … That only works because it was so popular, and you don’t have to talk about it.

[00:17:25] Nathan: Right. ‘Cause if I had explained the joke- Yeah

[00:17:27] or anything else, it’s like- No,

[00:17:27] Mike: back, uh, last summer, and you might recall that … Yeah. No, no, no. Uh-uh. Visual is the joke. And then you did a great job of playing off it, and then we move along quickly. ‘Cause the reason why people didn’t wanna do it, ’cause they said, “But that’s not actually what you want.” Like, you-

[00:17:40] Nathan: It’s a negative example- Yeah

[00:17:42] of spotlighting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We, we’re trying to spotlight subscribers- Yeah … so that you create this great experience for them and, and whatever else. And here’s a, a very negative example.

[00:17:50] Mike: Yeah. Um- So then going immediately over to

[00:17:54] Nathan: Taylor Swift. Taylor’s girlfriend. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I almo- … An earlier version, I w- almost explained this whole thing.

[00:18:01] Like-

[00:18:01] Mike: Yeah …

[00:18:02] Nathan: right? And so, you know, in the tour, she gives a hat at the end of the song, and it’s always, and sometimes it’s Kobe Bryant’s daughter or somebody. It’s al- it’s always a kid that she gives this hat to. Or I was, like, trying to play a video of it. Yeah, yeah,

[00:18:13] Mike: yeah.

[00:18:13] Nathan: And again, in all of this, it was like, you don’t need any of that.

[00:18:15] Mike: Yeah. Uh-

[00:18:16] Nathan: Like, if some- … Generally, like worst case, someone sees a fan being spotlight, or like any- a personalized experience for one fan. The Taylor Swift fans who have watched the documentary and all that know- Yeah … all of the backstory, and that can just be for them.

[00:18:29] Mike: Yeah.

[00:18:29] Nathan: Well- And so that was another thing where I, like, cut.

[00:18:31] It was, like, another 30 seconds, and it was like, “Oh, I’m actually not even gonna comment on

[00:18:33] Mike: that.” That … I mean, but that is, that is maturity. That is the courage to press delete. I mean, cur- I mean, it’s not storming the beaches of Normandy. Yeah. But I’m just saying, like, an insecure presenter is like, “No, no, I gotta explain this one.

[00:18:45] I have to be talking all the time.” And just being able to say, “Nope, this’ll do the job,” is awesome. Yeah.

[00:18:49] Nathan: Um, the other thing is Stephen Colbert is the word.

[00:18:53] Mike: Yeah.

[00:18:53] Nathan: Where the jokes are on the slide. You don’t have to deliver them. All I had to do was be like, “Oops, not like that.”

[00:18:57] Mike: Yes.

[00:18:58] Nathan: Uh-huh. And I … Something being up on screen for one second was enough to get a laugh that I was really happy with.

[00:19:04] Mike: Yeah. That is a great, uh, effort to laughter ratio.

[00:19:08] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. And it’s totally stress-free. I was slightly nervous that someone would be like, “That was tasteless,” or whatever. But, like, I think that it, it went well.

[00:19:18] Mike: I don’t know. I just think that’s funny.

[00:19:20] Nathan: Yeah. Focus on any one fan and spotlight them and give them a personal experience.

[00:19:25] Yeah,

[00:19:26] Mike: the people are

[00:19:26] Nathan: still laughing. That would be really special Because in that stadium, every single person-

[00:19:31] Mike: Is there any reason why

[00:19:32] Nathan: you’re holding onto her? Is it just

[00:19:32] Mike: random? … they have a

[00:19:33] Nathan: whole life. They have their own story, and they have their own- No, it’s random … reasons for being there. John Koenig has a word for this.

[00:19:40] Mike: I love

[00:19:40] Nathan: things like this. He’s called it sonder. And sonder is the realization that every person- This is the story that we originally built the talk around. Ah. Like, this quote- …

[00:19:48] Mike: as your own …

[00:19:49] Nathan: Steph on our marketing team found out that, like- Think about that … I suggested it, and she was like, “I was thinking about the exact same thing.”

[00:19:54] And so we were like, “Okay, this is…” You thought, you both thought about sonder? But remember the first 10 people who

[00:19:59] Mike: signed

[00:19:59] Nathan: up for my email list.

[00:20:00] Mike: Literally had two people heard that word before. Many of them didn’t

[00:20:02] Nathan: know me. I mean, you have

[00:20:04] Mike: to be

[00:20:04] Nathan: obsessed with a

[00:20:05] Mike: specific

[00:20:05] Nathan: YouTube

[00:20:06] Mike: channel. Like, heard it in the

[00:20:06] Nathan: past.

[00:20:07] But I knew why. And I had, uh, you know, I knew what they were working on. I totally

[00:20:11] Mike: lost the script right there.

[00:20:12] Nathan: Like, my brother-in-law, Philip, he was early in, in his design career, and so when I was writing to him and when I was writing my second book, I could directly write that to him because I knew it’d be useful to him.

[00:20:22] Mike: I think I just said “to him” four times.

[00:20:24] Nathan: At 100 subscribers, you can keep that kind of connection.

[00:20:26] Mike: Also, more great animation from Charlie.

[00:20:28] Nathan: It’s hard at 10,000 subscribers. Yeah, that…

[00:20:30] Mike: Oh, gosh, it’s so good.

[00:20:32] Nathan: At 50,000 subscribers, that feeling is nearly-

[00:20:35] Mike: How long did these slide, like, this, this slide take? Do you have any idea?

[00:20:38] Nathan: The individuals- To make? Yeah … who are lost in the crowd and they are just stats, like- Well, that’s Claude Design.

[00:20:41] Mike: So the- But is that, like- …

[00:20:43] Nathan: click-through rates.

[00:20:44] Mike: Uh, I don’t know. She’s probably an hour into those three slides. Okay. I think.

[00:20:48] Nathan: I just, I couldn’t see them anymore. To

[00:20:49] Mike: get the actual count of 50,000 and all

[00:20:50] Nathan: that.

[00:20:50] But that’s AI design helping out

[00:20:52] Mike: a lot. And so I started to ask myself- Oh, I love

[00:20:53] Nathan: this … I’m sitting in the backseat, and my dad’s driving, and my mom’s in the front seat. And my mom has… This is me, by the way, if you weren’t sure which one. Um, I wasn’t sure-

[00:21:04] Mike: It was needed to point out who it

[00:21:05] Nathan: was … I wasn’t sure if that was needed or…

[00:21:08] What I thought about doing is in the slide-

[00:21:11] Mike: Yeah, yeah …

[00:21:11] Nathan: having it say. Yeah, yeah. And then, and I was like, “Whatever, it’s not that, it’s not important.” And then in the moment, I was like, “Oh, maybe this will get a laugh,” and then it didn’t. Or, you know, it got a chuckle. Yeah. And it’s like, okay. So it didn’t, it didn’t add or take away, but it was one of those things where I ad-libbed it and I was like, “I didn’t need to.”

[00:21:25] Mike: I definitely didn’t know which one was you.

[00:21:27] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:21:27] Mike: You could have, if you wanted to just do, like, running Taylor Swift jokes, you could have been… But this is where it gets weird, because I wanna be like, you could put Taylor’s future husband, but like, it’s not… You’re happily married. Yeah, you know what I mean?

[00:21:38] Yeah, yeah. Like, I just don’t know how far you wanna take that. But to answer your question, I think everybody wondered who you were.

[00:21:43] Nathan: Okay, great. So I, I answered the question, so. I think, I think, uh,

[00:21:46] Mike: for ad libs like that, the, by the way, this is me being perfectionist, right? Yeah. But you don’t need by the way.

[00:21:52] Hmm. Or you just say- That one’s me.

[00:21:55] Nathan: Yeah. And my mom has the church directory out, and she is quizzing my dad on the names and families in the church. This is

[00:22:01] Mike: a great way to illustrate this

[00:22:02] Nathan: point. And it’s just a weird thing, like, why are, of all the things to memorize, why are you memorizing that? So I asked my dad, like, “What, what are you doing?”

[00:22:09] And he just said, “It’s hard to love and serve people you don’t know.” And my whole mission is to serve my audience

[00:22:17] Mike: And it’s, it’s great. Like, we can picture that whole thing happening

[00:22:20] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Turns out I wasn’t the only one who said

[00:22:22] Mike: it with that question. Yeah. We can picture that whole thing. There might be something even better if you gave the name of someone.

[00:22:30] But it has to be a real name. Like, it can’t be like-

[00:22:31] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:22:32] Mike: Smith Family. Like, it needs to be… I always remember on Seinfeld, the, uh, the gym teacher’s name was Mr. Bevilacqua. Right. And it, it was like, like, so it needs to be a real person. So maybe- It

[00:22:42] Nathan: has to be a real person who has a unique name.

[00:22:44] Mike: Yeah.

[00:22:45] Nathan: And especially if it’s a name that could- You could form a picture around who that person might

[00:22:50] Mike: be.

[00:22:50] Yeah, so no Johnson, Jackson, Smith, anything like that.

[00:22:52] Nathan: Right. Yeah. So it was interesting. So I almost cut this, and in our, um, rehearsal two days before, everyone was like, “Ah, I don’t… Indy, cut everything that doesn’t matter.”

[00:23:04] Mike: Yeah,

[00:23:04] Nathan: yeah. Um, so it almost got cut along with the, you know, the coffee with a friend Ron, you know?

[00:23:11] And so I went back and forth. Instead of deleting the slides, I hid it in Figma To be like, ’cause I wasn’t sure if I should delete it

[00:23:19] Mike: Oh, I thought this was like founder power move. Like, “Okay, they think it’s done. I’m gonna send it.” Oh, that wasn’t it,

[00:23:23] Nathan: okay. Put it back in. No, so what it was is I, uh, was on a call with my friend Andrew East, who I don’t know super well.

[00:23:29] So he’s a former NFL player. Um, he and his wife, Shawn Johnson, have a book coming out, and we were like helping them with some, um, some stuff. And so he was like, “Hey, you got the keynote coming up. Like, what stuff are you releasing?” And Andrew and Shawn are … They’re all in on serving their audience. They don’t care about the marketing or the funnels- Yeah

[00:23:49] all of that. They’re like, they just wanna show up as authentically as possible. Mm. And they care so deeply about their audience. And so I knew of, you know, any amount of like, “Oh, we’re building this thing called Signals, and it’s, uh, going to help you identify the CEO’s audi- Yeah … they don’t care.

[00:24:05] Mike: Yeah.

[00:24:06] Nathan: And so I

[00:24:07] So for the mo- I told them this story, and I said, “That’s what we’re building for your audience, so you can do that for 100,000 people.” I told him that on a call and he loved it, and I was like, “That slide’s going back in.”

[00:24:17] Mike: That’s awesome. And, you know, I need to come up with a name for this, where it’s not … So a story should be something that happens on a certain date and time.

[00:24:26] I’m not saying that you tell the audience that, but it’s like it happened this one time. This actually isn’t a story, and you can tell ’cause it uses the word would, so that you’re really like repeating … You’re, you’re going through like a repeated memory, and that actually is what makes this effective, is that it happened all the time.

[00:24:40] And then you land it on the point, which I think a lot of people would assume the point was evident- Right … and it’s not evident. So the, like that would’ve been kind of cool to picture, but I think everybody would be like, “Wait, wait, what is this third thing?”

[00:24:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:24:54] Mike: But yeah, landing it, and like it’s hard to serve people that you don’t know.

[00:24:57] You said it better than that. Like, that’s, that’s what we want.

[00:24:59] Nathan: Heard from a lot of creators who were piecing information about their audience together in surveys and spreadsheets. Robert Glazer was going into his email list and copying and pasting domain names into Google- This is so- … to see if anyone had a relevant business

[00:25:12] this is such a good setup for what Signals does. Has anyone else done this, where you do this manual research? Yeah, there’s a bunch of you that have. And the reason that Robert was doing it is because the right person could book him to speak or could make a bulk purchase of his books, and that might, might be worth $25,000 or more from a single deal Then I heard a story from Greg Eisenberg.

[00:25:34] So Greg signed into his kid account one day, and he happened to recognize that one of the icons I

[00:25:38] Mike: never know what to do with my hands. That’s something I gotta learn. You’ll see me like Like, what is the

[00:25:45] Nathan: half into those

[00:25:45] Mike: fingers? He reached out to- What is

[00:25:46] Nathan: that? He started talking. I don’t know. And he ended up closing a $500,000 design contract for his design agency.

[00:25:53] I was worried this… That’s a real example- That’s crazy … but I was worried it was too big of a number to be relatable. But what I observed, I was really curious about one thing. Greg has a fast-growing list. There’s a lot of people signing up.

[00:26:02] Mike: The, the calculation- So- … is what makes this story …

[00:26:04] Nathan: what was the window of time that Greg could log into his Kit account and that person would be one of these eight slots, right?

[00:26:13] They subscribe, and then they work their way through each of those slots. So I did the math based on his growth rate, and it was 45 minutes. If Greg had not logged in in that 45-minute window, that one subscriber would’ve been lost in a sea of 140,000 subscribers, and I don’t think Greg would’ve ever noticed.

[00:26:29] Mike: Yeah, I mean, if you went the hands thing, like, just bigger gestures would be a good place to go. And when you think about the average amount of people on your list- Okay. But particularly when you’re pointing- And they’re probably not all- … it’s like thumb instead of like- … who

[00:26:38] Nathan: are responding to every email or all of that.

[00:26:41] They’re just reading, enjoying your content, and they’re going on with their lives and businesses.

[00:26:44] Mike: But if you want something you’re doing well, you’re- And you know- A lot of people fall into the trap of both hands have- … that’s the blind spot of the funnel … to do the same thing.

[00:26:52] Nathan: It tells you what your subscribers are

[00:26:52] Mike: doing- Yeah, you’re, you’re at least, like, having them do different things

[00:26:55] Nathan: but it rarely tells you anything about who is actually going through there and why might they be important to your business. You end up losing sight of the humans behind those actions, and as a result, you don’t know who

[00:27:08] Mike: to highlight- Okay, so why are you looking at your notes so much here?

[00:27:10] Nathan: Um, yeah, it’s a good question.

[00:27:11] I think I just didn’t- Yeah … I didn’t have it memorized enough.

[00:27:14] Mike: Okay.

[00:27:15] Nathan: That was one thing where I, like, where to stand on the stage, they were telling me the further back you stand on the stage, the less- The less

[00:27:21] Mike: obvious

[00:27:21] Nathan: it is … the less obvious it- Yeah. When I did the, a full run-through that morning, like, on the actual stage, and there was a lot of stuff that we were still trying to fix, I realized I knew how to, like, go side to side, gradually working my way forward on the stage.

[00:27:34] And I was like, “How do I, how do I back up?” And so I just kept getting all the way to the front of the stage, and then I’m like, my notes are straight below me. Oh. I rely on them a little too much. Oh. And so, and so I had to realize … Actually, that’s why I went to the screen for the Greg Isenberg example and walked up all the way up to the screen and began, and pointed right at it, ’cause it let me retreat all the way to the back

[00:27:58] Mike: of the- Yeah, I can retreat.

[00:27:58] I can retreat. So good. I love that detail. Anyway.

[00:28:02] Nathan: And we can know who someone actually is. We can know their background, their social influence, and we can know their purchasing power. And that kind of identity data has been available for a long time, but it’s, it’s usually locked behind enterprise tail, uh, enterprise tools used by big sales teams, and this costs tens of thousands of dollars.

[00:28:21] Mike: This I was worried about getting right.

[00:28:22] Nathan: And those aren’t the kind of tools that are available to creators. Yeah, that’s what’s happening. And so I tried too

[00:28:24] Mike: hard to read it- Yeah …

[00:28:25] Nathan: but personally-

[00:28:26] Mike: And

[00:28:26] Nathan: I shouldn’t have just ad-libbed it … I think that creators deserve

[00:28:28] Mike: access, too. Okay, let me pause here. This is a good teaching thing.

[00:28:30] I learned this from working with Jenny Wood Man, I can learn a- like Jenny’s … Oh gosh, learn a lot from her. She’s the best. Okay, so if there’s something like that that’s either a tongue twister or you’re just not saying the right way, I always would either … Like, a lot of times I would cheat by just writing it as a slide.

[00:28:48] Mm-hmm. The thing that I couldn’t say, I was like, “Let me just make it a slide so people can at least read it if I screw it up.”

[00:28:52] Nathan: Right. Now, now I have subtitles.

[00:28:56] Mike: Jenny taught me you just say the thing, like, 30 times in a row.

[00:29:00] Nathan: Oh. Yeah.

[00:29:02] Mike: Enterprise sales teams can da, da, da. Enterprise sales teams can … Like, she just did, “Da, da, da, da, da, da.”

[00:29:07] And then I’m watching and this is like this bionic speaking woman. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this is a really good idea. Pass this along.” Yeah. I love that. Shout out Jenny.

[00:29:14] Nathan: So we’re building a new product that we’re adding into Kit, and it’s called Subscriber Signals. And it’s built specifically for creators.

[00:29:23] And what it does is it identifies your

[00:29:24] Mike: best

[00:29:25] Nathan: subscribers from

[00:29:25] Mike: the

[00:29:25] Nathan: beginning- I thought it worked well to keep coming back to the same animation- Yeah … but it being different. We were worried that it wasn’t different enough. And yeah, that’s what all this- But I think it came through.

[00:29:33] Mike: I think it came through.

[00:29:33] Your audience is made up of people, but all you see is this. Let’s change that. Subscriber Signals shows you a clear picture of who your audience really is.

[00:29:44] Nathan: And notice the later version of this, the team added subtitles to it. It didn’t have that until, like, the day before. Ah. And that was smart to do. Are these real people?

[00:29:53] Uh, no, they’re deliberately fake people. It’s my real account- Yeah … w- with everybody swapped out. Ah.

[00:30:00] Mike: Because your audience is full of people who could change your business if you only knew they were there. So

[00:30:05] Nathan: there’s a demo mode- They already know you … that you can toggle into …

[00:30:07] Mike: it’s time for you to get to know them

[00:30:13] I love what you do here Thanks, Nathan Not enough people heard that. That is funny.

[00:30:20] Nathan: So this voiceover I recorded, like, eight times. I’ve recorded it here in the studio in Boise, I’ve recorded it in New York and then I’ve recorded it here in the studio again- … when they’re like, “It’s still not good enough.”

[00:30:32] And I just thought it was so weird that they … Like, they wanted me to record that, the voiceover, because it’s gonna go on the web, it’s- it’s gonna go all these places. But I’m like, “I’m talking, and then is it AI me that’s talking?” “And then it’s me again?” I’m like, “This is so awkward.” And they’re like, “Just do it.

[00:30:48] It’ll be fine.” So I’m like, “I gotta make a joke about it,” but I couldn’t figure out what to say. And so … ‘Cause I was like, oh, thank, you know … Like, oh, that’s AI me or … And, but then people are like, “No, it’s not AI, right?” Or, like, um … ‘Cause I didn’t know what to say, and so I was like, “I don’t know what to do with this.

[00:31:05] I don’t wanna record the voiceover.” And then Dave, our CRO, was like, “No, just say, ‘Thanks, Nathan.'”

[00:31:09] Mike: It’s so good. I kinda like it less knowing that Dave gave you the line, but- But what I’ll say is 2017 Nathan would not have felt comfortable doing that. Right. And you are way more comfortable feeling like you deserve to be on the stage- Mm-hmm

[00:31:24] and you kn- there’s not, like, some script that you have to do exactly right. Yeah. And, and even with Dave giving you the line, there’s a way of doing that where it’s not funny, and … Or there’s a way of doing that where it’s kinda like, “Did you guys hear that joke? It was funny. Did you hear that?”

[00:31:37] Nathan: Right. But just

[00:31:38] Mike: the little throwaways.

[00:31:39] Yeah. Yeah. I like it.

[00:31:41] Nathan: Uh, and I saw the data from my own list. We hadn’t even built a UI for the product yet. Um, it was just account IDs and follower counts in a spreadsheet. And I saw someone on my list who had 2.4 million followers on LinkedIn, and I thought, “Wait, who’s this? Who on my list has that big of a following on LinkedIn?”

[00:32:00] So I clicked in, and it was Gretchen Rubin, author of The Happiness Project, someone who’s sold millions of books

[00:32:07] Mike: and has her own million-subscriber newsletter. I do think there you should be like, “And it was Gretchen Rubin.” Is she enough of a household name? That’s enough of a household name. I think so, yeah.

[00:32:13] And here she was on my list. Especially to this audience. Yeah.

[00:32:15] Nathan: And so I emailed her and I said, “Hey, Gretchen. I’m gonna be in town, and I’d love to get lunch.” What blew me away is, ’cause we’d never spoken before, and she wrote back immediately, and she said, “Yes, I’d love to. I read your newsletter.” And I had no idea.

[00:32:30] The opportunity to meet one of my favorite authors had been on my list for more than two years

[00:32:37] Mike: Side note, in that email, did you actually explain-

[00:32:39] Nathan: Success depends-

[00:32:40] Mike: No, you were just like, “You wanna get… I’m in New York,” or what? I clicked-

[00:32:42] Nathan: I have never told Gretchen how I knew she was

[00:32:44] Mike: on my list. Okay. So hi, Gretchen.

[00:32:48] I just told the- The problem is always there’s no signal Until now. Until now.

[00:32:52] Nathan: That’s always been a hidden thing, and that’s what Signals fixes. The opportunities were already there.

[00:32:57] Mike: Signals finally makes them visible and gives you everything you need

[00:33:01] Nathan: to act on them. Okay, so what timestamp are we at now in the video?

[00:33:04] We’re at 12 and a half minutes in. This is something that stressed me out, whereas, like, and granted, we showed what Signals was. We played the video earlier, right?

[00:33:12] Mike: Right.

[00:33:13] Nathan: But we’re, you know, we still got to nine, 10 minutes in before we actually, like, said it. That I was worried about or of, like, did I wait too long to get to any substance?

[00:33:22] Mike: Well, this, this is the thing. Theoretically, yes, but it wasn’t a long 12 minutes.

[00:33:26] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:33:27] Mike: So that, that’s, that’s the actual thing.

[00:33:29] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:29] Mike: I mean, it is nice that it’s, you had a long speaking spot.

[00:33:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:33:34] Mike: But, but because it didn’t feel long, like, as an audience member, I wasn’t like, “Come on. Get to the good stuff.”

[00:33:39] Right.

[00:33:40] Nathan: Here’s what happens. Let me show you inside. So first, Signals is gonna show you who your influential subscribers are, what they do for work, where they’re based, if they’re high earners or not. For my newsletter, we have 850 subscribers who have a significant- I

[00:33:52] Mike: don’t know. Should we jump ahead? Yeah, let me just say one thing real quick.

[00:33:55] Just notice this. When you are looking down at your notes, your voice is Not just less, less loud, also softer, but it, it’s, uh, it’s less full.

[00:34:06] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, and so you can see the difference.

[00:34:09] Mike: Yeah.

[00:34:10] Nathan: Yep. Yeah, and that’s the thing where, exactly as you said, like, we often finish fe- some of these things that were in here made it in at the very last minute.

[00:34:17] Yeah. There’s actually a bunch more stuff that we could have released that we didn’t, ’cause our product team was like, “This is too m-

[00:34:21] Mike: Yeah …

[00:34:22] Nathan: too many things to put in.” Yeah. I think that the, the buildup that we had ended up being really good because we were releasing something that didn’t exist before.

[00:34:30] Mike: Yes.

[00:34:31] Nathan: Like, it wasn’t like, “Oh, here’s our version of this.” It’s like, I feel like we had to even, like, really set the stage of why you would care.

[00:34:38] Mike: Well, and it’s easy to skip over that. And then, and again, when you know about it already, it’s easy to forget that the audience doesn’t know.

[00:34:46] Nathan: Mm.

[00:34:46] Mike: It’s like when you… Okay, m- two, three years ago, whatever you changed from ConvertKit to Kit.

[00:34:50] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:51] Mike: Remember the original run through? You just, like, said it real fast. I was like, “Dude, you’re changing the name of the company.” Like, you can’t just, like, say it, like… And then if it… There has to be buildup that lets people know, like, this is a thing. The thing that I wa- I was, uh, nervous is too strong a word, but the thing I wondered about, thought could be some, um, fuzziness that you avoided with…

[00:35:13] So Signals is a regular word. It’s not, it’s not iPad or something like that. Yeah. Right? So when you have a regular word and you’re launching, it’s just… If, if someone doesn’t pay attention for a half second, it’s like, “Wait, what?”

[00:35:22] Nathan: What is it? ”

[00:35:23] Mike: Is it a traffic signal?” Yeah. Like, what is this signal? And you did a really good job of, “This is the product name.”

[00:35:27] Nathan: Mm-hmm. This one we debated a lot. It almost got cut.

[00:35:30] Mike: Hmm. I thought it was helpful.

[00:35:32] Nathan: Before when we ra- ran through it, it didn’t have the slides. Let’s say

[00:35:36] Mike: I’m teaching a 90-day cohort, and we’re pricing it at $1,000.

[00:35:40] Nathan: It didn’t… When I was talking through the script, it felt super long. This is actually use of AI.

[00:35:44] I used AI to then say, “Hey, I need this in 25% less words.” Yeah. Yeah. And I still had to tweak it a little bit, but it-

[00:35:52] Mike: That’s $114,000 in revenue, and it’s a great launch.

[00:35:56] Nathan: But it didn’t work at all until we made the slides stepping through it, and it was like, okay, now this isn’t too long. Yeah. This works. So if you think about funnel-based

[00:36:03] Mike: marketing- Well, so that’s also, like, a good slides question for yourself.

[00:36:07] So one of the things I have people do sometimes is read through your script, highlight anything that feels long. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause it’s, that’s often a key that a slide can help you be more efficient. Yeah. Which it big time was here. Maybe

[00:36:18] Nathan: you weren’t that interested or, or- I

[00:36:20] Mike: almost added, like, three more slides.

[00:36:21] I just didn’t have time- Oh … to, like, illustrate some of this

[00:36:24] Nathan: better. Generic blast is gonna drive a few more sales, but it’s ultimately gonna fall flat. And so with signals-based marketing, we can actually treat each person in their journey.

[00:36:33] Mike: This is something I was really trying to get a difference between funnel-based marketing and signals-based marketing.

[00:36:37] And I don’t think I nailed that as well

[00:36:37] Nathan: as I wanted to. And I would send personalized emails to the top 20

[00:36:43] Mike: Probably ’cause they don’t remember what you’re talking about.

[00:36:45] Nathan: Yeah. Another segment of everyone who has 10,000 followers or more and an income level above $100,000. Let’s say that’s 150 people. This is also a hard product because everyone’s gonna use it in a different way.

[00:36:57] Mike: Yeah.

[00:36:57] Nathan: It’s like giving people a generic hammer or a saw, and it’s like you’re gonna use it in your own way for your thing, but like-

[00:37:03] Mike: Here’s how to use a hammer. Oh, okay.

[00:37:06] Nathan: I can push harder. I can ask, uh, sharper questions because I know that this group of people, they have-

[00:37:11] Mike: I will say right around this pa- this part, Ally Grummer was right in front of me, and she kinda like turned around and mouthed like, “Wow.”

[00:37:17] Yeah.

[00:37:20] Nathan: So I like to think of signals as-

[00:37:21] Mike: Cool panning … panning for

[00:37:22] Nathan: gold

[00:37:23] Mike: in your online business. Animation. Okay, so this one, it had a circle around it before, and all I could see was a Petri dish. And so then I said that in Slack, and I was like, “Oh, yeah. No, that’s all I can see.” And so Charlie redid it, so it was a spotlight instead, instead of a magnifying.

[00:37:38] So

[00:37:38] Nathan: funny. For most friends, it’ll make no difference So Terry Rice is already putting this to use. Terry’s a, a keynote speaker, a consultant, he’s a Dada 4

[00:37:48] Mike: This is a great

[00:37:49] Nathan: example Build an engaged audience

[00:37:50] Mike: and- When he

[00:37:51] Nathan: sent us this email, ’cause he wrote it all out in an email, and he’s like, “Hey, sorry I’m so late to respond- So we can give Signals-

[00:37:55] to give you feedback on this, but it’s Kit’s fault.”

[00:37:58] Mike: You

[00:37:58] Nathan: can see what the hook is here And we’re like, “What?” Yeah. And we keep reading. It’s a good hook. He’s basically like, “This changed so much of what I’m doing, and the launch did so well,” and all that. Like, “It worked so well- About being a dad … that I forgot to send you details back because I was too busy- The audience responded-

[00:38:11] loving engaging with my audience.”

[00:38:13] Mike: You want a good example of your product regardless, right? Mm-hmm. But, like, what works particularly well about this one is it’s unlikely in the sense of it’s not something that you would think to look for. Right. He mentioned it once

[00:38:23] Nathan: in his newsletter, and the first sale came in-

[00:38:25] Mike: Like demographics or, you know, like-

[00:38:27] Nathan: Now, my favorite

[00:38:28] Mike: part about this story is- Even if you say demographics, it would be like money and things like that Right

[00:38:30] Nathan: is he said that that subscriber who bought the first copy- Yeah, households with children. When I looked at all the reports from what we built and the data we got back, I wouldn’t have picked that out at all. Like, I was like, “I don’t know why that’s useful, but sure” So that was

[00:38:42] Mike: four days- I thought to myself in the moment like-

[00:38:45] of selling … “Oh, should I be doing that?” Mm. “Should I be talking about that more?” So it’s cool as a product user to think, like, there’s something in there. It might not be parenthood, but there’s something in there for me that I should talk more about. Right.

[00:38:58] Nathan: So when I hear stories like Terry’s, it just reinforces something that I’ve believed for a long time, that building an audience is the single most valuable thing you can do.

[00:39:06] I

[00:39:06] Mike: should’ve done a slide for this. Yes. Yeah.

[00:39:08] Nathan: And all the value from funnel-based marketing, that’s still there. It works incredibly well. Signals just makes that audience twice as valuable.

[00:39:16] Mike: So what you could do on this slide, actually, is, um, funnel and signal right next to each other. I’m not 100% confident in that, ’cause it might look too similar and people- Yeah

[00:39:25] be like, “That looks the same thing.”

[00:39:27] Nathan: That data’s probably really expensive. How much are we gonna have to pay for

[00:39:31] Mike: it? This is so good. This is a Nathan Barry has arrived moment. Like, I was just … This, nobody else in the audience cares about this, but this sounds, again, my whole thing with the speech, even when you’re a founder launching a new product, is I want the audience to forget that it’s a speech.

[00:39:47] And most people who are in speaker mode are like, “I know you were wondering about cost,” and then like, whatever. Like, yeah, we are. But doing it this way sounds more like you’re just talking around the dinner table. I was like, now you might be wondering, cool, but it, it sounds like a lot of money. Right. Like, I can hear someone saying it versus speaker mode, and I was

[00:40:07] Yeah. I mean, that’s another place where it’s like 2017 Nathan doesn’t do this. Yeah.

[00:40:11] Nathan: We’re gonna include it all in our Creator Pro plan, so you don’t have to pay anything else, uh, on top of this. It’s all included.

[00:40:19] Mike: Should’ve gotten bigger applause It should’ve Do people not know what plan they have? Is that possible?

[00:40:23] Nathan: It could be All the extra enrichment, we’re going to get all of that in and bring it for you. So it’s available in beta- One,

[00:40:28] Mike: in my notes, I wrote down applause moments. Like, that’s probably what,

[00:40:30] Nathan: something… If we think about notes for next year or other speeches- Yeah … that I’m working on and all that, like, that’s a skill that I wanna get better at, is how to guide, you know, through, through the script, through the slides, and probably most through the, like, the tone and pacing, to guide to, like, and now you applaud.

[00:40:50] Without it being like, “Where’s my applause?”

[00:40:54] Mike: You could have done, uh, one of these, like, “And how much… Wait, how much does it cost?” Click, and it’s just free, and it’s, like, super big. It says free. You could do that.

[00:41:04] Nathan: I think the hard thing, where we’re navigating, is, like, it is in the pro plan.

[00:41:08] Mike: Yeah.

[00:41:08] Nathan: Which, you know, just statistically speaking, most people are not on.

[00:41:12] It’s not that expensive to upgrade to the pro plan- Yeah … relative to the cost of the data.

[00:41:15] Mike: My thought was, I have no idea what plan I’m on. Right. I would pay for this. But I might be on pro already.

[00:41:21] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:41:21] Mike: So I wonder how many people are like that.

[00:41:23] Nathan: Probably quite a few.

[00:41:24] Mike: Yeah.

[00:41:25] Nathan: Yeah. It was, it was tough to figure out how to-

[00:41:27] Mike: Yeah.

[00:41:27] Right, right, right …

[00:41:28] Nathan: how to articulate. But that’s something. You know, I always think of, like, what’s a micro skill that I’m trying to build? And that would be.

[00:41:34] Mike: Waiting for people to love me. Yeah,

[00:41:36] Nathan: exactly. Yeah. Get our pro plan, and we’d love to, uh, show it for you and help you get it set up for your own list

[00:41:50] Well, I mean, that’s actually- Now- … some good whooping. Simple

[00:41:52] Mike: That is good whooping. Okay, so you can’t do this every time, but I do think one time it is funny to do like a- Understanding how they’re moving Yeah … through your funnel. Taking a bow.

[00:42:00] Nathan: How long they’ve been with you, and whether they- That would … If you were to do it, that would be the moment.

[00:42:04] Mike: Yeah.

[00:42:04] Nathan: Which is why we’re

[00:42:05] Mike: excited about- But it’s also hard in the moment. Like, wait, wait, I’m … But there’s a better part later. You know, like what do I save it for?

[00:42:10] Nathan: And it’s gonna help you go really deep on how your audience is engaging over time-

[00:42:13] Mike: I don’t

[00:42:14] Nathan: know what made me laugh

[00:42:14] Mike: right there. Maybe somebody said something

[00:42:15] Nathan: as they move through the sales cycle. So let’s break it down. These reports show you how your subscribers and unsubscribes, uh, by source. So we have all the attribution. You can filter by UTM. You can see exactly which channels are bringing in the right people. So let’s say you’re running LinkedIn or Meta ads and you wanna know, are those people engaging, and how’s that different from people who signed up from or- organic social?

[00:42:35] You can see all of that right there. And then if we wanna get really nerdy, we’ve got cohort analysis. So you can see your engaged subscribers week over week, and you can see exactly where the falloff happens or where people get excited and stick around.

[00:42:50] Mike: These things are hard because y- your instinct is to make a story here too, but it’s like you can only have so many stories per- But you-

[00:42:56] Nathan: Yep

[00:42:56] you can go and tag those subscribers, and you can have that segment flow straight into Kit ready for an email or an automation So I’ve been building Kit for over a

[00:43:06] Mike: decade now, and So that I would’ve l- like, that could’ve been, that was the f- the conclusion of a feature. Yeah. But I didn’t cue the audience at all.

[00:43:13] Ab- at all. Yes, totally.

[00:43:15] Nathan: We’re building some really spectacular things here. We’re building new ways to connect audience data, building deeper connection points in Kit, and finding more ways to put all these insights to work for you. Now, you might think, “Wow, Nathan, you’re such a talented designer and developer.

[00:43:26] You built all of this yourself, and you dreamed up all of this yourself.” And bigger

[00:43:30] Mike: smile

[00:43:30] Nathan: here if I’m being nitpicky. I appreciate that. I appreciate the flattery. This is good. That is not the case. All of this would not be possible at all, uh, without the person, all of the teams, but especially the person who’s been leading the charge on our products.

[00:43:41] And so will you give, will you join me in giving a warm welcome to Kit’s Chief Product Officer, Katie Swetmelar?

[00:43:53] Mike: She gets music. Yeah. This is a small but important point. A lot of times people transition from speaker one to speaker two, and I’m like, “Do they know each other?” Right, ’cause they just, they just… Here’s the clicker. So you, you don’t need three minutes of every, of like Katie’s backstory, but I do wanna know that you know each other and like each other.

[00:44:17] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so something that you and I have talked about, uh, before is being able to build up a roster of people on the team.

[00:44:24] Mike: Yeah.

[00:44:24] Nathan: And so this is Katie’s second year taking half the keynote.

[00:44:27] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:28] Nathan: One, for me, it’s so much better. Right. Because the amount of prep and rehearsal that I have to do, you know.

[00:44:33] I have 20 minutes that I gotta do. Yeah. She has 20 minutes or so. Also, there’s this article, um, that Wes Kao wrote, uh, called The State Change Method. Hmm. And she wrote it during COVID. And, you know, ’cause everyone’s going to online presentations. E- everything that before was interesting and in person- Yeah

[00:44:49] all this is, like, on Zoom and slides, and it’s so boring. And so her core point is, like, you need a state change every three minutes or so. Hmm. And a state change can be switching speakers, asking questions, something interactive in the Zoom chat, uh, playing music, starting or stopping screen sharing. Like, and she just has a whole list of these.

[00:45:11] Oh, that’s great. Yeah. And she’s like, “Every, at least every three minutes, you gotta have one of these if you wanna maintain.”

[00:45:14] Mike: Three minutes is aggressive, but okay. Yeah. Sorry, keep going. Yeah.

[00:45:16] Nathan: Yeah. And may- maybe she said something slightly different. Yeah. But to keep that. And so in this case, switching speakers, got us one of those, right?

[00:45:23] Mike: Yeah.

[00:45:24] Nathan: And, you know, ’cause if I was presenting the whole thing, it’s just way too long of a presentation.

[00:45:28] Mike: And we had- It’s, it’s hard for you. Like, this- Right … is the thing that the founder trap is, like, “I must do it.” Nobody articulated it this way-

[00:45:35] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:45:35] Mike: but it’s, “I must do it all.”

[00:45:37] Nathan: Right. And so in this case, being able to build up the team and invest in them and give small opportunities, um, like I, I think for this venue, two speakers is perfect.

[00:45:46] But I think that’s part of why Apple does, you know, some of those. Yeah. They’ll do four or five. They’ll bring someone out for a little two-minute demo. Um, I

[00:45:53] Mike: think. Yeah. That’s true. Yeah, yeah, they, yeah, that’s, yeah, a lot of times it’s, yeah, several people, that’s true.

[00:45:58] Nathan: Well, let’s, let’s dive in to see how she starts it.

[00:46:02] Mike: How awesome was that? Are you guys excited- No, Katie, just go … to hear about more product updates? Okay. So just- You would want her to just dive right in … today’s announcement is one of those moments in my career where I’ve been like, “Oh, this is new. This is exciting.” Yeah, I want her to just go in And I get to bring it to all of you.

[00:46:16] We

[00:46:17] Nathan: actually have more

[00:46:18] Mike: to share with you Here’s what I want, here’s what I want Katie to do. Again, this is, this is Mike being, looking for an A++. What I want Katie to do, uh, she might not actually have been able to do. I don’t know how the music works behind the scenes, but what I want her to do is to take the clicker from you, and before she gets to the center of the stage, start talking.

[00:46:36] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:46:37] Mike: Okay. So less of a, “I’m now in the center of the stage, and I am Katie, and I will talk to you now.” Okay. It’s more like there’s momentum.

[00:46:43] Nathan: Hmm, and just carry it through.

[00:46:45] Mike: Yeah.

[00:46:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:46] Mike: Yeah.

[00:46:46] Nathan: Okay. That’s interesting.

[00:46:47] Mike: So Nathan shared a little bit more, um, about… Wrong slide. Um, who’s on your list and how they’re actually engaging with your creator business.

[00:46:57] And the next question, whenever I talk to a creator is, “That’s great, Katie, but, like, what do I do with that information?” Yeah,

[00:47:03] Nathan: this is set up

[00:47:04] Mike: really well How do I take everything that Kit knows-

[00:47:06] Nathan: She’s doing the whenever I talk to a- Yes … that you were mentioning in the previous episode Yeah …

[00:47:10] Mike: really actionable and helps me?

[00:47:13] And so that’s what I wanna walk you through today. Starting with something that has changed the way that the creators who have used it are using Kit, which is our Kit MCP. How many of you have tried it? We have some hands. Yeah? Okay, great. We’ve launched it- Um,

[00:47:29] Nathan: something else that stands out, the… I guess we haven’t gotten into that level of detail yet, but the, the animations and the graphics, I feel like the team just did a stunning job- Mm-hmm

[00:47:39] on all this, and that made a huge difference, and, like, it carried a lot of the weight of it.

[00:47:42] Mike: Yeah.

[00:47:43] Nathan: Old 2017, if we’re contrasting-

[00:47:46] Mike: Yeah …

[00:47:46] Nathan: it would’ve been screenshots or screen recordings where you have to filter through a little bit more-

[00:47:52] Mike: Yeah …

[00:47:52] Nathan: to see. Actually, 2017, we did live demos.

[00:47:55] Mike: Oh,

[00:47:55] Nathan: damn. And then I think 2018, we realized, like, why are we doing that to ourselves?

[00:47:58] Like, if the Wi-Fi goes out, like, this is terrible.

[00:48:02] Mike: Just burn some paper on the side of the stage while we’re at it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. See what happens.

[00:48:08] Nathan: But anyway, so later on, uh, you, you can keep playing it, but later on we, um, go into more animations and all of that. Oh, jump to, uh, one of the examples of, maybe it’s further back, uh, when we’re showcasing people on the screen.

[00:48:22] Mike: Yeah, yeah,

[00:48:22] Nathan: yeah. I watched part of this from backstage, and then I came around and watched some from front stage, so there’s a little bit that I missed. You had mentioned something about … Was it- Yeah … that

[00:48:31] Mike: she’s trying to find Dan in

[00:48:31] Nathan: the audience? So,

[00:48:32] Mike: okay, using someone in the audience is a great move. It gives them a little bit of spotlight if they want it.

[00:48:39] Nathan: Yep. Or someone’s like- Even if they’re not … oh, I’ve, I talked to that person earlier this morning.

[00:48:43] Mike: Yeah, totally. And then Dan later, I’m sure someone was like, “Are you the Dan that was on the screen?” You know? That sort of thing. The trap that a l- lot of people fall into that Katie did not fall into is there’s this sheepish, like, “Dan’s here?

[00:48:56] Dan’s here?” Then the- Mm,

[00:48:58] Nathan: sure, nobody … shade from the, and they’re like looking, like,

[00:49:00] Mike: is- Yeah, and then, and then it, it … When you can’t find Dan, so what happens a lot of times is you can’t find Dan in the audience, and then you act as if that, like, someone refuted your argument. And you’re not even making an argument.

[00:49:12] What I loved is she allowed there to be time for someone to find Dan. I was watching him. He tried to not be found. Okay. He kept backing away. But she allowed that time, and like people around him just like, yeah, I don’t know if it’ll pick up on the audio, but in the audience people were like, “He’s right here.”

[00:49:26] Mm. And I just loved that it didn’t kill her confidence.

[00:49:29] Nathan: Yeah. But yeah, that’s a good point of like you could say, “Dan, who’s here at Craft and Commerce.”

[00:49:34] Mike: Yeah.

[00:49:34] Nathan: And the trying to find the person, which I, you know, our MCs have done it a few times- Mm … and all of that, and like it’s just not needed.

[00:49:42] Mike: It’s not needed.

[00:49:43] Well, and I mean, sometimes it’s just like, “Dan”- wasn’t there. Right. He’s not required

[00:49:48] Nathan: to get a cold. Dan’s in the bathroom.

[00:49:48] Mike: Yeah, totally.

[00:49:50] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:49:51] Mike: But I, I love that when it took a minute, it wasn’t like, “Oh, shoot, Dan’s not here. This might suck.”

[00:49:56] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:49:57] Mike: Which it- it’s easy to, to have that deflate you.

[00:50:00] Nathan: Okay, so I want to jump to, uh… Okay, so w- w- a bunch of stuff that we launched, right? The apps, the MCP. One key thing that we were really trying to do in this is bring everything back to the MCP, which, this is a hard thing, ’cause there’s, it’s such a technical term. But basically, like, to be able to interact- Yeah

[00:50:19] with it, with AI. And so Katie had a few touch points, just again with landing pages, of like bringing it back to like, and you can interact with it through your AI tool as well.

[00:50:28] Mike: This is something that’s really hard, is when you’ve got people in the audience that are all over the place technically.

[00:50:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:50:34] Mike: You got the power users, and then you’ve got, what did Liz Wilcox say? “My only feature is press send.” Yeah, exactly. Was that

[00:50:41] Nathan: it? Yes. She’s like, “That’s the only kit feature I use,” and I teach email marketing.

[00:50:44] Mike: Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s hard to… On one hand, Liz Wilcox, and I don’t mean literally Liz, but the Liz Wilcox person very well might just be like, “MCP, okay, I’m just gonna not pay attention for a few minutes.”

[00:50:57] On the other, it’s easy to make the Liz Wilcox person feel stupid.

[00:51:01] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:01] Mike: You don’t know what an MCP is. So one thing that you can do, I don’t remember if Katie did this in the speech or not, but one thing you can do is you can just declare this is an advanced skill.

[00:51:11] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:12] Mike: For you advanced users, you can da, da, da, da.

[00:51:14] Nathan: Yep.

[00:51:14] Mike: And, you know, what she does at some point, I don’t know where it is in this, but at some point she does say, “Power users,” starter sentence power users, rest of sentence, “I’m talking to you power users right now.”

[00:51:24] Nathan: Right.

[00:51:24] Mike: Most people are uncomfortable doing that ’cause it feels too direct, but it’s actually a great move.

[00:51:28] I

[00:51:29] Nathan: like that. In total- See, here she’s summarizing all of the- … available to you in our app store … all of the apps Which we’re really excited about. One little behind-the-scenes thing that we did- So we want to give you everything that works with the way that you run your business- Is when we first made the app store, it was very fragmented.

[00:51:42] Mike: Yeah.

[00:51:42] Nathan: And the, it did not look like visually pleasing. And we’re like, how do you handle that at scale with like 70 and then 100 and several hundred apps? And what we ended up doing, we talked to the team at Framer, which is a-

[00:51:54] Mike: Oh, yeah, yeah …

[00:51:54] Nathan: design platform. And they were like, “Yeah, we just design custom graphics for every single user-submitted app in the store.”

[00:52:00] And I was like, “Wait, you can do that?” I guess it’s not that expensive. And so we hired an agency, actually Rafal, he’s a, uh, Craft and Commerce attendee. Oh,

[00:52:08] Mike: yeah, yeah,

[00:52:09] Nathan: yeah. And so his team designs four custom graphics and an icon for every single… Even if a, a random indie developer makes an app, for every single app in the App Store.

[00:52:18] That’s- And it results in a very cohesive experience like this. So when Katie goes to demo it, like, that’s what it all actually looks like. Yeah, yeah,

[00:52:25] Mike: yeah. Oh, that’s cool.

[00:52:26] Nathan: For something I thought was way too expensive, but then when you did it, you’re like, “Oh, no, that’s actually manageable.”

[00:52:34] Mike: Uh-

[00:52:34] Nathan: All right, let’s jump ahead to the landing pages section

[00:52:37] Mike: that’s a good behind-the-scenes right there.

[00:52:39] Nathan: Okay, so, so some context about landing pages. We don’t wanna over-hype something-

[00:52:44] Mike: Uh-huh …

[00:52:44] Nathan: where we’re, like, going from not good to, like, good, right? And I think it’s a weird thing if you come out and you’re like, “And this is the best thing ever.” Yeah. And so we really…

[00:52:55] We’re not sure how to do this. So we we’re gonna play through it, and then we’ll comment on.

[00:52:59] Mike: She never would have expected before. And this is exactly what this product is built for. And all of this works better having the right people on your list, which brings us to landing pages. You weren’t shy telling us what you thought about our landing page builder.

[00:53:19] Nathan: So she throws

[00:53:20] Mike: it up on the

[00:53:20] Nathan: slide. No,

[00:53:21] Mike: pause it. Yeah, pause it right there. This, again, I don’t know, maybe courage is too strong, but it’s not, it’s not easy to just not say words that you were looking at- … when you’re speaking. But it was so much more effective to do it this way. Okay, so let’s play it out. She, instead of having it as a side, she just says out loud, “You weren’t shy about sharing this with us.

[00:53:47] Some of you said your landing pages are the worst.” Like, that’s not funny.

[00:53:52] Nathan: Right. It might be mean.

[00:53:53] Mike: Yeah, and it sounds mean.

[00:53:55] Nathan: Yeah, in this case, b- ’cause… And she also has, like, this little grin. Yeah. Like, it’s just, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, it’s clearly true that someone said it, it, but it’s a joke, and it’s meant to be laughed at.

[00:54:05] And it’s also interesting that it didn’t get a sharp laugh. It got a rolling laugh- Uh-huh … and I was kind of thinking about that of like, oh, people are, like, reading it and they’re laughing at their own.

[00:54:14] Mike: Well, so I don’t know the… I’m not, like, a neuroscientist or anything, but I’ve noticed this. Same thing with Tim Urban’s TED Talk.

[00:54:20] There’s, like, a moment where people are like, “Oh, it’s a joke.” Like, there’s this one punchline that’s like, “Oh, it’s a joke.” And I think, like, hearing someone next to you laugh, you’re like, “Wait, there must be something funny. Ah.”

[00:54:30] Nathan: Right.

[00:54:31] Mike: I don’t know. I’m psychoanalyzing fractions of a second in my brain, but you’re right, rolling laughter.

[00:54:35] Okay, keep playing it, ’cause there’s a, a-

[00:54:38] Nathan: Last year, John Meese, who actually is in the audience today, hey John,

[00:54:43] Mike: and is a Kit power user, pulled Nathan aside and said

[00:54:51] Nathan: You need to be a surprise So there’s two things I like about this. One, it wasn’t a big laugh- Yeah … but she got a second laugh by saying, “And he said,” and she flipped the slide again. But then what got another laugh, and I didn’t catch this ’cause I was probably going back- I

[00:55:04] Mike: was right next to John. You were right- I did not tell him to do this.

[00:55:07] It was just, you know, greatness, sheer instinct. He yelled out, “You’re landing p- you’re landing pages to the worst.”

[00:55:13] Nathan: So then that got another laugh.

[00:55:14] Mike: Oh, it is, uh… Gosh. Yeah. That was so good.

[00:55:20] Nathan: You have a point. Our builder was six years old, and it did not have the design or visual quality that

[00:55:28] Mike: you wanted it- Actually, can I add one more thing?

[00:55:29] Yeah. Uh, this is not the most important part of the talk, but I do think it’s worth letting people know the, the, the thought that went into this because there’s a way of doing it where John Meece said this, and John Meece sounds like a jerk.

[00:55:40] Nathan: Right.

[00:55:40] Mike: And you went to great lengths to be power user and, like, he’s a friend who was giving us real feedback rather than, like, some A-hole said…

[00:55:50] Yep. Yeah.

[00:55:52] Nathan: So we rebuilt it from the ground up. This might be the biggest applause of the-

[00:55:58] Mike: In the new editor- Yeah … you can now completely customize your layout, change fonts- That’s funny ’cause it’s such a felt pain point … to fit exactly your

[00:56:05] Nathan: brand. Mm-hmm. It’s the single biggest friction point.

[00:56:07] Mike: Yeah.

[00:56:09] Everything is-

[00:56:09] Nathan: That people list in the product …

[00:56:10] Mike: completely customizable the way that you want it to be. You’ve got 20 beautiful modern templates to choose from, and whether you’re building a lead magnet, a course sales page, or even a launch page, you can build it, customize it, and publish it directly in Kit without needing different tools

[00:56:35] Nathan: You can tell, like, people are, they’re just excited about landing pages.

[00:56:40] Mike: Everyone can start using this new landing page builder today. It’s available for you. And whatever you build, we are so excited to see it. But what’s even more exciting is where we’re taking it next. So when we shared that we were rebuilding landing pages publicly, one of the first things that we heard was, “These updates are great.

[00:57:04] Love the templates, but can’t you just have AI do that?”

[00:57:09] Nathan: This one, I couldn’t think of the joke. There, there’s a sharper joke to make here- Mm … that I couldn’t quite figure out. But the, the main thing that we wanted to do is… I always think of, like, Eminem in Eight Mile-

[00:57:21] Mike: Yeah …

[00:57:22] Nathan: where, like, what are all the negative things that someone’s gonna say about you, about your launch and all of that, right?

[00:57:27] And, you know, in that, that rap battle, he goes lists off all, like, all of the things that you might say.

[00:57:33] Mike: Yeah, yeah.

[00:57:34] Nathan: And now, now you can’t say them about me because I already said them about myself. And so this was an example where we’re like, “Okay, we’ve made progress, but it’s not amazing yet. So what’s the thing that it needs to-” Mm.

[00:57:45] “Like, that people are going to look for?” And even though it’s not quite ready, because we… Like, it’s real code and everything’s about to be demoed, that part is just not 100% live yet because that was, like, the alpha version was finished on the Friday before. And, but that was one thing where we’re like, “Okay, we have to address,” and Katherine Liver is a good friend, and, you know.

[00:58:06] Um, but we have to address, like, the actual thing and give the full moment to be like, “Okay, it’s turning into what everyone’s going to expect.”

[00:58:13] Mike: Got it. Got it. Okay, that’s cool. That’s good to know.

[00:58:16] Nathan: So this is the part of the talk that we’re really ty- trying to nail. And so what we feel like is, well, over the last, like, two years- Mm

[00:58:25] we’ve been playing a different game than everybody else, ’cause we’ve been building towards an app store being connected data, like, the relationship between your subscribers and you is the most important thing, and here’s how everything is integrated together, and it’s all AI first and how the creator and our, you know, all of this stuff.

[00:58:39] Whereas everyone else is just like, “Here are some features.” And so this was our attempt at articulating that, and I’m not sure how much of it landed.

[00:58:49] Mike: I don’t think you emphasized that you’re playing a different game.

[00:58:51] Nathan: Yeah. ‘Cause it felt too on the nose to-

[00:58:54] Mike: Yeah …

[00:58:54] Nathan: to say it.

[00:58:55] Mike: Hmm. Yeah, that’s an interesting one.

[00:58:57] I mean, the only time I can remember you really talking about other companies was several years ago, and you were kind of, like, looking at all the-

[00:59:05] Nathan: Where everyone’s moving away from the creator economy- Yeah … and we’re s- doubling down on creators. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s the only time I’ve done it.

[00:59:12] Mike: Would it felt bad… I’m not saying you made the wrong decision, just would it felt bad about it?

[00:59:15] Nathan: I think I just couldn’t figure out the phrasing-

[00:59:17] Mike: Oh, okay …

[00:59:17] Nathan: to, uh, yeah, to do it. But this is something I think that you’ll hear us talk about a lot more in the future as we ca- sort of get all this out there and then- Mm

[00:59:27] build on it.

[00:59:27] Mike: Thank you.

[00:59:39] Nathan: So the music there is on purpose. It’s the instrumental version of what’s coming We’ve shown you a lot today. A lot of AI, a lot of automation, and, uh-

[00:59:47] Mike: Huge win for the Knicks the night before. Can’t plan that …

[00:59:50] Nathan: turning a lot of technology that does more things for you.

[00:59:51] Mike: That’s right.

[00:59:53] Nathan: That’s where the whole world is moving, and it’s really exciting But the more powerful that technology gets, the more we wanna be deliberate and intentional about the other side of it, and that’s real human connection, community, right?

[01:00:09] Being in a room- Yeah, are

[01:00:09] Mike: you,

[01:00:09] Nathan: like, tired

[01:00:10] Mike: of using your hands at this point? Like, this is like- … with

[01:00:12] Nathan: people who share the same values as you.

[01:00:14] Mike: No, I mean, I, I mean, I’ve been off stage for 20 minutes,

[01:00:16] Nathan: so. And this is something that it’s easy to say. Everybody says community matters, relationships matters. But this is something that we are actively investing in.

[01:00:25] And so that is why I’m really excited to share with you our next community feature.

[01:00:29] Mike: And that is- This is actually a little bit of a miss. It doesn’t end up mattering because it’s such a killer announcement, but I’m gonna overdo it right now- Yeah … but this would be a place for the, “Our next big…” Da, like that- Like

[01:00:43] Nathan: bring up the energy.

[01:00:44] Mike: Yeah, that crescendo, yeah.

[01:00:45] Nathan: Yeah. And so what the other thing I’m doing right now is I’m in the middle of the screen, and so I’m walking off to the side. Oh. Yeah.

[01:00:53] Mike: This is a classic. Right, right, right. Yeah, so y- your brain is somewhere else. You’re like, “I gotta get off, I gotta get off.” I

[01:00:58] Nathan: gotta move off- Yeah … to the side as the video plays

[01:01:18] Yeah, I love that they, uh, switched from the… So the previous years it was three separate screens, and then this year they went to the full wraparound. It’s actually the same LED panels, but-

[01:01:30] Mike: Are you feeling weird now because there’s no more music? Yeah,

[01:01:32] Nathan: come to life in New York City. It was really- I was trying to figure out the timing of when to move on to the video- Yeah

[01:01:36] because it looped and I didn’t know when. So we hosted a friends and family event there last week, and seeing the space come- But I like that it no longer says Craft and Commerce in the background. Yeah. There’s so many different spaces in here. It’s like, it’s like immersive. There’s a mastermind area.

[01:01:47] There’s places for workshops. There are six video recording studios, all with different sets and scenes that you can use, all for your text content. Do they have Taylor

[01:01:55] Mike: Swift hymns like these? Yeah, they

[01:01:55] Nathan: do. All

[01:01:57] Mike: right.

[01:01:58] Nathan: There’s something new we’re trying out- This one is called Blank Space … which is our immersive recording studio, where it’s actually a TV as the background.

[01:02:03] Mike: This one before, the lighting in the real studio is actually slightly better.

[01:02:07] Nathan: Really? We’re trying

[01:02:08] Mike: out the beach. Yeah.

[01:02:10] Nathan: His Brooklyn apartment, all of that. There’s a bookcase that folds down into a stage, because it’s New York City and you gotta, you know, make the most, like, the best use of space, where we hosted live podcasts.

[01:02:26] There’s room for about 60 to 70 people to listen in. It’s all recorded on high-quality cameras.

[01:02:30] Mike: Not necessarily, but it would’ve been cool to see it fold down.

[01:02:32] Nathan: So you can have that in-person experience and- Yeah.

[01:02:33] Mike: That would’ve been… That would’ve gotten the full… Yeah …

[01:02:36] Nathan: uh, watch as well. And there is so much more that I can’t wait to show you in person It’s been amazing to see so many creators record content- Both

[01:02:48] Mike: Sam and Michelle were there in the audience,

[01:02:51] Nathan: and so it was fun to have their clips-

[01:02:52] in Boise, in

[01:02:53] Mike: Chicago. And it

[01:02:53] Nathan: would be even more

[01:02:53] Mike: amazing

[01:02:53] Nathan: to see

[01:02:53] Mike: what

[01:02:54] Nathan: you accomplish

[01:02:54] Mike: in New York City as well … up on stage. Oh, that’s cool. I didn’t even realize it was Sam,

[01:02:56] Nathan: yeah. So you can consider this your official invitation to come to New York or Boise or Chicago. Come in person, record content, attend an event, network with other creators, and just be in the community- Okay, so,

[01:03:09] Mike: uh, Brian, our new COO, afterwards he was like, “Okay, you killed it.

[01:03:11] It was so good. Nicely done. You just missed one thing.” And I was like, “What did I miss?” And he’s like, “You forgot to tell them the studios are free.” And I was like, “Oh.” Ah. Share this with the audiences too,

[01:03:24] Nathan: who are here to serve you their audiences and do something really, really special.

[01:03:27] Mike: Yeah, it’s a little bit of a miss for the l- customers know that already, but for the live stream, it’s a little bit of a miss.

[01:03:34] So let’s do a behind the scenes here. Your concern was this is, this about Kit, it’s about users, for creators, by creators. Also, let me tell you about my first book and my book that’s coming out.

[01:03:48] Nathan: It’s all about me.

[01:03:49] Mike: Yeah.

[01:03:49] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:03:50] Mike: So un- unpack that.

[01:03:52] Nathan: Yeah, we went back and forth on it. Um, so I wanted to, to show this idea of, like, going back to the Steve Jobs versus your friend Nathan.

[01:04:01] Mike: Yeah, right.

[01:04:02] Nathan: Right? I wanna end this on, uh, your friend Nathan- Mm-hmm … was writing a book- Ah … and had a pain, and he solved it. And I, I had versions of this where I was like, “And I couldn’t write another book until I felt the product was finally good enough”, you know? And it only took me 12 years or, um, something like…

[01:04:18] Or, uh, man, it’s 14 years.

[01:04:20] Mike: That’s funny. Do you have, like, weird years? This is off topic. Do you have… I find that I never calculate from 2026. Like, 2020, like 2018, I feel like is not seven years ago.

[01:04:32] Nathan: No, eight years ago. Yeah, ’cause

[01:04:33] Mike: of

[01:04:33] Nathan: leap. Yeah. Right. Yeah, no, it’s, it, it’s weird to do the math on it and- Yeah

[01:04:37] and now the number is getting so big, like- Yeah … this, we’ve been at this for a long time. Yeah, I didn’t want it to feel like it was all about me.

[01:04:44] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:45] Nathan: And I definitely didn’t wanna make it feel like a pitch for my new book.

[01:04:48] Mike: Yeah.

[01:04:49] Nathan: And so I was trying to walk this line of, hey, we ha- I built this product for you, and I built it for me as well.

[01:04:55] And you know it’s for me because I’m building the things that I wanna have- Yeah … when I launch this next book. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That I did it, I’m a creator.

[01:05:03] Mike: Right. Right, right, right. Oh, that’s interesting. For,

[01:05:05] Nathan: for creators, by creators.

[01:05:08] Mike: Ah, that’s interesting. That would’ve been an interesting way to go. I didn’t think about it.

[01:05:11] Nathan: 798 subscribers hovering over the send button, and that started my obsession with email marketing and earning a living as a creator. 119 days after hitting send, I wrote the first line of code for Kit, which was my attempt to codify all the email marketing best practices that I learned into a product.

[01:05:33] And our ethos has always been for creators by creators.

[01:05:38] Mike: Maybe that’s a helpful side to have, but I guess there, there’s like so much happening, maybe not.

[01:05:42] Nathan: Only took a decade

[01:05:46] Mike: That’s cool

[01:05:46] Nathan: though. It’s called The Ladders of Wealth.

[01:05:48] Mike: Thank you.

[01:05:48] Nathan: And, you know, my email list is a lot bigger now. I have a whole team behind me, and yet I think I’ll probably still hover over that send button just as nervous as I did a decade ago. Some things just don’t change.

[01:06:02] Mike: I didn’t deliver that line

[01:06:03] Nathan: as naturally as I wanted to.

[01:06:04] Yeah. Yeah. But a lot is going to be different. It felt like a line. I’m doing this launch with everything that I showed you today. So I’ve got signals to find the right partners, the right people to help me host launches in each city.

[01:06:15] Mike: You feel a little,

[01:06:16] Nathan: like, tired here, honestly. The right podcast to go on.

[01:06:18] Mike: I think I’m emotional.

[01:06:18] Nathan: Uh. I’ve got landing pages to bring new people into my audience. I’ve got the MCP to help me act on all of it.

[01:06:24] Mike: So I think the best version of this, by the way-

[01:06:26] Nathan: This

[01:06:26] Mike: is

[01:06:26] Nathan: my

[01:06:26] Mike: dream … I think the, the best version of this in terms of gestures is … So in general, just bigger gestures I think would help you with energy too.

[01:06:37] Mm-hmm. It’s always weird to talk about like hands and stuff, but- Right … I think the best version of this as it relates to gestures is thing one, hand down, thing two … I mean, less robotic than I’m making it, but like- Yeah … I’ve got the da, da, da. I’ve got the team to help me. I’ve got duh, and it’s like a little bit faster about these terms.

[01:06:52] Bigger, faster, and bigger. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:54] Nathan: So my last book launch was on MailChimp. I didn’t get to see who was on my list. I didn’t get to understand how they were engaging. That’s funny. I just, I wrote emails, I hit send, and I hoped. And this time I have everything that I need to do it right on Kit So for the last decade, we’ve been learning from you Your feedback, your creativity, and your ambition are all over this product I didn’t say your fingerprints.

[01:07:21] We didn’t build Kit for you. I skipped that accidentally. We built it

[01:07:23] Mike: with you.

[01:07:24] Nathan: And it’s not just about using software. You all are part of a creator network and a community that helps each other grow. So in just a second, I’m gonna wrap up, and you’re gonna applaud. It’d be weird if you didn’t.

[01:07:38] Mike: It was well delivered.

[01:07:40] You got there.

[01:07:41] Nathan: But as I do that, I want you to know one thing. Behind the scenes, we’re all cheering for you. The Kit team is cheering for you, this community is cheering for you, and we cannot wait to see what you build next. Thank you so much.

[01:07:58] Mike: Okay, so some content, like that closing slide. Yeah. That’s all what you

[01:08:02] Nathan: wrote.

[01:08:02] Mike: Yeah.

[01:08:03] Nathan: And it worked really well. I thought it was good for one laugh. It was good for two right

[01:08:08] Mike: there. Yeah, yeah. Right? ‘

[01:08:10] Nathan: Cause when you said, “‘Cause you’re gonna applaud,” like that got a laugh.

[01:08:14] Mike: That was good. Yeah.

[01:08:15] Nathan: And then, yeah, I was, uh, happy with the delivery on that one ’cause I waited just long enough. Yeah.

[01:08:20] And then it was an aside of like, “It’d be weird if you didn’t.” Yeah.

[01:08:23] Mike: Yes.

[01:08:23] Nathan: And that got the second laugh. So that worked really well. Ah. It was like… I feel like that was a good example of perfectly walking the line between… And I can say this ’cause you wrote that. Yeah. I

[01:08:32] Mike: wrote, yeah.

[01:08:34] Nathan: Between a serious, heartfelt moment-

[01:08:37] Mike: Yeah

[01:08:38] Nathan: which can drag on too long- Mm-hmm … if you let them, and like punctuating it with like, “We don’t take ourselves too seriously- Yeah … and this is still fun,” and…

[01:08:46] Mike: Yeah, ’cause, uh, you know what, and I hadn’t thought about it in that way, but yeah, we don’t take ourselves too seriously is also why John and me can tell you that landing pages are the worst.

[01:08:53] Right. And why you accept feedback and why people love this brand.

[01:08:58] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:08:58] Mike: Huh.

[01:08:59] Nathan: That’s a lot of fun.

[01:09:00] Mike: I’m curious… Well, I’m curious two things. So you immediately, you walk off 10 seconds from now, are, are you like, “Oh, thank God that’s over”? How are you feeling?

[01:09:10] Nathan: I felt great. Okay. Other than the beginning, the chaos at the very beginning- Yeah

[01:09:14] and knowing that the live stream hadn’t… But I had actually processed all of that when Katie was on stage. Yeah.

[01:09:19] Mike: Right. Yeah, yeah, you got a break.

[01:09:20] Nathan: And so I was, I was really excited. We had spent extra time on that, on the New York moment. Mm-hmm. Like figuring out, okay, Empire State of Mind, we’re gonna… You know, like the song.

[01:09:30] Realizing, oh, we can do the full takeover. And so I felt like, okay, that worked really well. And I honestly liked having the closure of just coming on for a few minutes and closing it out, um, you know, rather than it… I didn’t have the same feeling of coming out off of a big talk.

[01:09:45] Mike: Yeah.

[01:09:45] Nathan: Which also, to your point earlier, I needed to reset my energy ’cause I could’ve b- like, I think I hyped up before, uh, before the talk and, but not again like when I came back out.

[01:09:59] Mike: Oh, man. Yeah, that’s hard. That’s like a starting pitcher, and then like the team scores a bunch of runs and you’re like, “But I need, I wanna pitch again.” Right. Like, it’s like a long inning, and you’re like, “Oh, like my energy’s gone.”

[01:10:10] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:10:11] Mike: Oh, that’s interesting.

[01:10:11] Nathan: But I was, I was very happy with how it turned out.

[01:10:13] Mike: Yeah.

[01:10:13] Nathan: Um.

[01:10:13] Mike: So right after this, we go to a break I mean, one of the things that’s hard about a speaker is you want every single speech to change every single person’s life. And we go to break, and from the audience’s standpoint, just the sheer math of it, we’ve been in the room for 90 minutes now or close to it.

[01:10:29] Nathan: Yeah, between intros, Simon’s speech, and then this one, yeah.

[01:10:32] Mike: Yeah, and that’s like the absolute limit that- Yeah … people should be doing, like- Yeah … where people should go without a break. So I don’t know if you were literally like this, but a lot of people wanna walk off the stage, and then you’re picturing 800 people waiting to talk to you.

[01:10:46] Did you, uh… Well, first of all, did you come out of the green room or did you just, like, stay back there?

[01:10:52] Nathan: Um, I think I stayed back for a couple minutes, but then came out ’cause it was into a break, and so then I just started talking to people.

[01:10:55] Mike: Yeah, you did start talking to people. So, like, what are some of the things you’re hearing afterwards?

[01:10:59] Nathan: Yeah, people were really excited. The … I was sur- I’m always surprised at how many people come to Craft and Commerce who aren’t customers.

[01:11:04] Mike: I find that strange,

[01:11:05] Nathan: um- But it’s cool. It’s great. Yeah. I, I think it’s, like, probably 30% of, of attendees.

[01:11:10] Mike: Um,

[01:11:10] Nathan: which means we put on a great

[01:11:11] Mike: event. I did hear one person next to me, and not John, obviously.

[01:11:15] Lot of John me shout-outs here. But there was someone in our area who said, who muttered, he’s like, “I’m gonna have to go back to Kit.”

[01:11:22] Nathan: So I heard a lot of that, a lot of, “Oh, I gotta upgrade to Pro,” and so it’s like, okay, this is working. I would always ask the team, or ask people, “Hey, you know, f- like, what resonated the most?”

[01:11:30] And I would say, like, the team who built it, I wanna be able to tell them what resonated. And I heard signals the most, and then landing pages.

[01:11:37] Mike: Well, it’s also a good question for anybody who just gave a speech, because everybody, everybody will be like, “I was good.” And it’s not terribly helpful.

[01:11:46] Nathan: But yeah, we heard, heard a bunch of good feedback.

[01:11:50] It went really well. So yeah, it was a ton of work going into it, but it was totally worth it. Before we wrap up, any, any final thoughts on …

[01:11:57] Mike: I am curious how … Oh, you know what would be cool for people to hear is your evolution of rehearsal. So I’m saying, I’m saying when you start rehearsing- Mm … and then what that looks like.

[01:12:10] And I can tell you what you do if you don’t know what I’m talking about.

[01:12:13] Nathan: Are you talking about the Loom videos, or

[01:12:15] Mike: what? No, no, no. The thing you told Katie about how to rehearse.

[01:12:18] Nathan: Okay, tell me.

[01:12:20] Mike: You’re like, rehearse with speaker notes. Mm. And then once you feel like you know that reasonably well, run through it without the speaker notes and just see how it comes out.

[01:12:28] Nathan: Yep, and then compare the transcript of the speaker note version with the no speaker note version and see which one was better.

[01:12:34] Mike: Yeah. ‘

[01:12:35] Nathan: Cause usually there’s a line or two that’s ad-libbed and you’re like, “Oh, that’s way better.” I was- That was

[01:12:38] Mike: really good, yeah …

[01:12:39] Nathan: like, in the script, I was, like, really trying to massage this, trying to get it right.

[01:12:43] I was looking to Claude to give me ano- better idea of how to phrase it, and then when I had no notes and I just said it, I was like, oh, turns out that was the natural way.

[01:12:49] Mike: Uh-huh.

[01:12:49] Nathan: The other thing that I do, which you’re on the receiving end of many of these- Uh-huh … is I will write, usually I will voice dictate ideas for something.

[01:12:58] I will then turn it into a script. I’ll then record me talking through the script to see how it sounds. I’ll massage it from there. Will turn it into slides, and then I’ll do a run-through, record it in Loom of those slides, and I’ll dra- I’ll send it to you, I’ll send it to- Yeah. You got the most polished version this time.

[01:13:15] Mm. Usually you get a really rough version.

[01:13:17] Mike: I think you sent it on a Friday. It was a Friday night. It was, it was after hours. I remember that, it was after hours. And I saw it come in and I was like, “Ah, I can’t do this right now.” ‘Cause I was expecting the rough version. Like I, I, we were like cooking dinner- Yeah

[01:13:28] I was like, this is not, this is not the time for a Nathan Barry Loom video. But it would, it would’ve been fine. Yeah.

[01:13:34] Nathan: Um, but then that gives everyone the chance to comment on it and be like, “This works. You should phrase this better.” Like inline comments. Yeah. And then I’ll incorporate all that. And so then I’ll just do run-throughs.

[01:13:42] And then you don’t feel as bad sending it to someone, ’cause you’re not like, “Hey, will you practice with me?” You’re like, “Watch this on 1.75 speed and-

[01:13:49] Mike: That’s a great thing that you do, is you give permission to people to not-

[01:13:54] Nathan: Watch it sped up. Yeah. Unless you’re giving feedback on timing or delivery, but we’re not doing that at

[01:13:59] Mike: that stage.

[01:13:59] No, we’re not doing that yet. Yeah. So. Uh, Loom is the proper way of doing that, and more people should do that.

[01:14:05] Nathan: Yep.

[01:14:05] Mike: Yeah. That’s good. How do you feel, do you feel like with the script in general, how, how much do you feel like you have to get the wording exactly right?

[01:14:14] Nathan: If I had had more time to rehearse, what I would’ve done is deleted most of the speaker notes out of the- Mm-hmm.

[01:14:20] Mike: Yeah …

[01:14:20] Nathan: out of the script. ‘Cause it, they serve you until they don’t.

[01:14:24] Mike: Yeah.

[01:14:24] Nathan: And so I had more times where I could’ve said something just fine on, on the screen, or based on the slides- Yeah … and what I knew was coming next, and I read the script.

[01:14:33] Mike: Yeah.

[01:14:33] Nathan: And I, I should’ve deleted down to like the three words.

[01:14:36] Mike: Yeah.

[01:14:37] Yeah, yeah. My suggestion to people who have these presentations done more than seven minutes before they go on stage is only put things in the speaker notes that are hard for you to remember.

[01:14:48] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:14:49] Mike: So like for me, and I don’t, I don’t speak very often, but I, I just have trouble with statistics. And for some reason I’m always nervous that like someone’s gonna get mad if I said 3.7 instead of 3.8.

[01:15:01] Nathan: Yeah. So you put it in and you get it correct. Just like put it

[01:15:02] Mike: down in the speaker notes and I just know when I get to that part. That’s exactly right. Yeah.

[01:15:06] Nathan: All right. Well, I’m getting the cue from Kara that, uh-

[01:15:09] Mike: Oh, better, better … we’re

[01:15:09] Nathan: supposed to be back at the conference. The, ’cause it turns out we’re running a whole conference

[01:15:12] Mike: for 400 different people.

[01:15:13] We get, we get to be the last speakers. It’s all good. Nathan, well done, my friend.

[01:15:18] Nathan: Thank you. Well done. It was a lot of fun to share behind the scenes.

[01:15:20] Mike: Yeah, it was awesome.

[01:15:21] Nathan: All right. Till

[01:15:21] Mike: next year.

[01:15:23] Nathan: Sounds good. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:15:33] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.