Live Coaching: How We’re Growing This Business To $5M | 118

[00:00:00] Nathan: Michael built a productivity app called NAS B, and now the business is stuck at $1 million per year. So he’s flown here from Europe to brainstorm how we can break through that ceiling. The goal is to scale NAS B to 5 million. Expansion is a very important metric for

[00:00:15] Michael: Yes

[00:00:15] Nathan: business.

[00:00:16] Michael: One big roadblock that I have encountered throughout the years is that I could fire myself from all of the roles in the company, except for the marketing role.

[00:00:25] Nathan: We’ve got plenty of things to cover here. We break out brand team, customers, and product. We put everything on the board so we can see it and identify what’s working and what’s not. One way to get attention is direct sales. I love this method because it is entirely within my control. The problem here with direct sales in this business is this right

[00:00:43] Michael: here.

Yeah, exactly. It’s

[00:00:44] Nathan: so if your company’s revenue has plateaued, you are really gonna benefit from going through this diagnostic process. And seeing how to run the same audit on your own business. Have you heard this idea of max MRR? No. Like, I cannot stress how important it is. So [00:01:00] what you need is, you need, I got it.

So cool. That was fun. So Michael, tell me about NAS B.

[00:01:07] Michael: Yeah, so, um, it all started because I am not a very well organized person, and my wife is, I’m not, and I knew that I had, you know, in order to be successful, I had to figure it out to be organized.

[00:01:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:19] Michael: And especially I was a good consultant, but I was starting to, you know, not make deadlines like really, you know, uh, not deliver on time.

Mm-hmm. So, uh, I read this book by David Allen getting things done, and I was, uh, and the book is great. The, the advice is great, but it was very like, you know, old school right on the p piece of paper, like all that stuff. And I was like, there must be a digital way for this.

[00:01:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:40] Michael: So, um, so this is how it started.

I started, you know, um. Writing my own tool. Oh, actually over the weekend I built a first version of NSBE just for myself.

[00:01:49] Nathan: Are you’re a programmer by trade?

[00:01:51] Michael: Yeah. No. Um, yeah, kind of. I’m a geek.

[00:01:54] Nathan: Okay.

[00:01:54] Michael: So I studied business, but I was in the free time I was programming.

[00:01:58] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:01:58] Michael: And that’s why, so I [00:02:00] I, I, it was fun for me always.

It’s like Lego bricks, you know? Yeah. It’s like building something. I’m a builder. So in that sense, I built very quickly a prototype of this, and then I started using it daily, and I was like, yeah, this is good. Um, for example, I stole this idea from Gmail that when there is, like, when you have many projects, when you have many tasks with a star, you can make the ones that are, you know, that are important.

Yeah. So this is, was, this was my, my way of doing priorities and, and next actions from getting things done to, to my app. And when I started Nas b, when I launched it to the world. Like, there were crickets in the beginning, but then, uh, I was involved in some, uh, you know, GTD uh, discussion groups. Mm-hmm. And then there was actually a question like, do, which tool do you use for getting things done?

I was like, yeah. So I built this thing and can you give it a try? And one of the people who read this thread was a famous, then famous blogger from ZD Net, and he just wrote a whole article about nasby on zd net.

[00:02:54] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:54] Michael: And it just blew up.

[00:02:56] Nathan: Oh, wow.

[00:02:56] Michael: Uh, so it was, uh, like, and I was this guy from [00:03:00] Warsaw, Poland in an apartment, you know, doing that.

So, completely unknown in the States, but I built a version of Nasby, the first version in English. So this is how it started, basically.

[00:03:10] Nathan: Okay. And so how long did it take from launching the first version to reaching a million in annual recurring revenue?

[00:03:16] Michael: Okay, so it, it, it was a few years. Mm-hmm. So in the first year, in the first year, I managed to get to $4,000 in monthly recurring revenue.

So it was still my side hustle

[00:03:30] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:03:30] Michael: The first year. But then when I reached 4,000, I was like, uh, I’m not making 4,000 on my, you know, consulting job. So actually I’m making more on nos B and uh, I preferred to work on nos B. So, uh, so after New Year’s Eve of 2000, 7,008, when, when I crossed the, the 4,000, uh, monthly recurring revenue, I decided, yeah, I’m gonna just drop the customers and just focus on, not be full-time.

And then three, four months later, I hired my first, uh, programmer because then I realized I [00:04:00] was good enough programmer to start it, but I’m a crappy programmer to continue. Right. Developing it.

[00:04:05] Nathan: Yep. That makes sense. Okay. And so what year was that, that you, 2008. 2008

[00:04:09] Michael: when I, you know, moved full-time.

[00:04:10] Nathan: Okay.

That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And then what was the journey from full-time to a million a RR?

[00:04:16] Michael: Yeah, so, um, it was like, um. Uh, so, uh, the first three years we, we got, uh, I remember, I remember this ceiling. We couldn’t, I couldn’t break $20,000 of monthly recurring revenue. Yeah. I was like, I was like, 18, 17. I was like, come on man.

So it was, it was that. And then, um, we launched an iPhone app, um, uh, with, in collaboration with an, uh, a different company. And by accident our co our, uh, application in 2010, 2011 blew up in Japan.

[00:04:48] Nathan: Okay,

[00:04:48] Michael: because we had the iPad app and the, because iPad launched in 2010. Mm-hmm. And just right after launch we had an iPad app for nsbe.

So we were one of the few, you know, to do apps having, uh, an [00:05:00] iPad app. And, uh, somebody wrote an article in Japan and then suddenly it blew up in Japan. And when it blew up in Japan, it went from 20,000. Uh, monthly recurring revenue, uh, to 60,000 monetary recurring revenue.

[00:05:11] Nathan: Wow.

[00:05:12] Michael: It was just,

[00:05:12] Nathan: was And was that global growth or was that really concentrated just in Japan?

[00:05:16] Michael: I mean, it was global growth, but more, but like half of that was in Japan.

[00:05:20] Nathan: Okay.

[00:05:20] Michael: Wow. So, and, and actually I went to Japan to promote Nas b It was the first time ever I flew to Japan. Uh, first time I hired a PR consultant person ’cause I didn’t, and I didn’t speak any Japanese. Um, so we had a whole promotion there in Japan and everything.

Uh, so, and

[00:05:35] Nathan: that worked to drive more growth?

[00:05:36] Michael: Yes.

[00:05:37] Nathan: Okay.

[00:05:37] Michael: Yeah, I mean it, at, at least it sustained the growth that, that, that showed up there. So, and then this guy who wrote the initial, you know, article about Nasby back then, he actually wrote a whole, you know, kind of, um, uh, manual book for NSBE in Japanese.

So, so there was a book about NS B in Japanese and, um. And this is, this is basically where that, [00:06:00] that catapulted us to like 50, 60,000, uh, monthly recurring revenue. And then after that, uh, also in the states, there were more customers. And, um, so we basically, like two years later, like we already had one thou 100,000, you know, monthly recurring revenue.

[00:06:15] Nathan: And when did you hit that peak?

[00:06:17] Michael: So the, the peak that we hit was the, the, the, you know, the, um, 1.5, 1.6 million

[00:06:23] Nathan: a RI,

[00:06:24] Michael: and it was like around 2000, uh, so 2016, 2018. Okay. So that was the, that were the years where we reached the peak. But also there was the moment where I observed that, um. The customers who loved our app kept, he kept buying and they kept buying the, you know, the annual, uh, subscriptions.

Uh, we also, also always had that pricing that, uh, the annual subscription was 20% cheaper than the monthly and was enough for people to prefer to buy annual. And of course, for us it was better because there was a commitment to, to use our tool. So, um, we would all [00:07:00] also, every now and then do like a promo of like, you know, if you buy for a year, we give you three additional months, or something like that.

So this was also weird because then sometimes they would renew, like, you know, 15 months later. So we had like renewals at very different stages, um, but did work for us. But I realized, um, two things. First, that, um, uh, there are also like increasingly ma many more like 2016, 2018, many more tools that, uh, are just free to do apps that basically do what we do.

Uh, but uh. The collaboration features, like, of getting things done together is much more powerful. This, this was my, our discovery as a team that we actually have more fun, like by collaborating on tasks. We call it task-based communication. So we basically, you know, each task has a common thread, so this way we comment on the task.

So it’s much more productive, much more clean. You don’t chat, you know, in Slack or somewhere else. The, the, the, the [00:08:00] communication is about the task, you know, that has to be done and the clear delegation and all that stuff. And then we realized we have to, you know, uh, develop more of these tools of, of, of, to make sure that the collaboration works better.

And, um, yeah. And then basically we had this wild idea, which, you know, which was a mistake, uh, to rebuild our tool from scratch. Uh. You know, putting, putting the comments and the, the, the, the collaboration like as, as the, the core feature, uh, of our app. So getting things done together.

[00:08:31] Nathan: Okay. And so then you rebuilt that in 2020?

[00:08:34] Michael: Yes. We, and then we launched in 2020. And much towards disappointment, I think it didn’t, you know, it didn’t hit off quickly. Right. Uh, while we did neglect our, you know, NSBE classic customers who are using the classic app, uh, ’cause we were not developing it, you know, at, at similar, similar pace. So even though.

It’s not like people demanded lots of features. It was just like, kind of neglect, you know? Yeah. Not, not, not.

[00:08:57] Nathan: So what, is everyone on the [00:09:00] new version of Nas B now, or

[00:09:01] Michael: no? No, no, no. We still have

[00:09:02] Nathan: What’s the split now between classic and

[00:09:04] Michael: So, so now it’s, uh, now the, the number of, uh, customers, it’s more or less, um, it’s 60 40%.

So 60% is an only old one, and 40% on is on the new one.

[00:09:15] Nathan: Okay.

[00:09:16] Michael: And, uh, but the, the, the revenue and the, the growth is on the new one.

[00:09:21] Nathan: Okay. That makes sense. All right. There’s so much that I wanna dive into in this business. Yeah. Before we jump up on the board, what, what would success look like for this business?

You’re at a million a r.

[00:09:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:30] Nathan: Um, you’ve been stuck there for a while.

[00:09:33] Michael: Yes.

[00:09:33] Nathan: Like, what, what is your goal to get to?

[00:09:35] Michael: So I am. Mission driven just like you guys. Uh, so I’m this ridiculous guy that when somebody, when I see somebody who’s disorganized, I’m gonna tell ’em, just lose, use nasbe. Like, use my app. You know, I’m, I feel like this car salesman, you know, like I, I want to give them my app.

Uh, uh, so for me, the 1 million, uh, uh, annual revenue rate also symbolizes that we’re [00:10:00] not reaching the people.

[00:10:01] Nathan: Right.

[00:10:01] Michael: We were supposed to reach. ’cause uh, yeah, money’s great and all, but, uh, I would like to have just a bigger impact because I, I know for a fact that, because the thing is, as you will see from the metrics, like when once people get the hang of our app, they love it.

[00:10:15] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:16] Michael: But how do we show it to them? How do we onboard them? Right? How do we convince that their team should go all in on our app? That’s the, the main issue, I would say. Uh, so for me, yeah, I would love to have, you know, like, um. In the next few years, get to 5 million. Uh,

[00:10:32] Nathan: okay.

[00:10:33] Michael: That’s your goal. And then hopefully 10 million at some point.

But, uh, 5 million would be great.

[00:10:36] Nathan: And then I think one other piece of context that’s really important is just what’s happening in the competitive landscape. Yes. You touched on it. You have a lot of products now Yeah. That are mainstream. Um, what is Asana? Trello.

[00:10:49] Michael: Monday. Monday.

[00:10:50] Nathan: Click up,

[00:10:51] Michael: click up. Like all of these guys.

Yeah. And the thing is, this also caused, uh, kind of an identity crisis for us. Like, we were like, [00:11:00] should we continue doing it? Like, right. They’re great tools. These guys like, they’re fantastic tools. Like why do we bother, you know, to develop our tool? Um,

[00:11:09] Nathan: it’s a good question. Why?

[00:11:10] Michael: Yeah, exactly. And, and we were, because we were just thinking maybe we are the only customer of our, of ours.

Like we, maybe we are the ones that we’re building it only for ourselves and we are selfish and you know, we should just, you know, go home. Um. But then our customers came back, uh, very often, like, uh, ’cause I thought, you know, uh, if people know about Asana, they’re not gonna, they’re not gonna even give us a try.

But then our customers came, came and they were like, yeah, no, we, we did try Clickup, we did try, uh, Asana. They’re just bloated. We don’t want bloat. We want, like, because in our, in NSBE tasks is the main thing. Like there you organized projects in, uh, um, tasks into projects. You tag tasks and tasks have comments and tasks is the main thing In Asana.

Task is one of the features,

[00:11:55] Nathan: right?

[00:11:56] Michael: It’s like, it’s one of the things, uh, and that’s why [00:12:00] our customers told us like, no, no, no, keep going. What you’re doing is great. Like, and they voted with dollars. Like the still, I would argue that 1 million annual revenue rate, it’s still not bad. It, and it shows that people actually are willing to pay money, right.

For your software. Just that, um. And we needed this, we needed this reinforcement, we needed that. We needed to know that, okay, so we’re not building this just for fun for ourselves. Mm-hmm. Like, there are, there are people who have tried different things and came back to us. Like the, the ground was the, the grass was greener on the other side.

[00:12:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:33] Michael: But it’s not. Okay. So, so this kind of helped us, uh, when we were in this like, low point at some point, like three few years ago, uh, it, it helped us, uh, you know, reinvigorate and now we have a roadmap. We, uh, with some additional cool features, we’re gonna incorporate some AI into nos and stuff. So we have ideas how to make our simple tool like even more powerful, but still simple in that sense.

[00:12:57] Nathan: Sounds good. Well, you’re really passionate about the product. Yes. And I would love [00:13:00] to help you bring it to more people. Yeah. So let’s jump up on the board and just really diagnose and dig in.

[00:13:04] Michael: Let’s do it.

[00:13:05] Nathan: All right. So the goal, we’ll just start with that. Yes. The goal is to scale

[00:13:11] Michael: the five.

[00:13:14] Nathan: I like it. Okay.

So let’s look at where we’re at now. Mm-hmm. And kind of break down a few of these things. There’s two groups that I wanna focus on.

[00:13:23] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:23] Nathan: Um, there’s really the metrics of the business and then sort of the core building blocks.

[00:13:29] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:30] Nathan: So from a metrics perspective, we just write some of these down. Um, let’s see.

I guess the revenue growth is gonna come from, uh, two things. Really. Awareness.

[00:13:39] Michael: Yes.

[00:13:40] Nathan: And then activation.

[00:13:42] Michael: Yeah.

[00:13:43] Nathan: Then if we were to keep breaking this down from activation, um, there’s really expansion.

[00:13:49] Michael: Yeah.

[00:13:50] Nathan: Uh, expansion, uh, retention.

[00:13:54] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:55] Nathan: Return. Same thing. [00:14:00] Uh, retention and then referral.

[00:14:03] Michael: Yeah.

[00:14:03] Nathan: Would be the last one.

[00:14:04] Michael: Yes. Yes. This was also our bread and butter in the very beginning. Like, because the GTD enthusiasts, like we’re referring NSBE and others to NSBE very easily.

[00:14:13] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:13] Michael: Now referrals are not that easy.

[00:14:15] Nathan: So that’s, uh, that’s good to look into. There’s other ways you could phrase this of like, obviously we don’t have, uh, contraction and reactivation and, and some things in here, but as, as some core buckets.

That’s good.

[00:14:26] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:27] Nathan: And then within the team Yeah. Or within the, the building blocks of the business.

[00:14:30] Michael: Yeah.

[00:14:30] Nathan: If, if were to write these down, I’ll switch to another

[00:14:33] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:14:33] Nathan: Another marker. Um, we have, I think there’s brand.

[00:14:42] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:43] Nathan: The team itself.

[00:14:44] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:46] Nathan: There’s the product.

[00:14:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:49] Nathan: And then customers almost bits.

[00:14:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Nathan: Okay. So I wanna start in, let’s start down here. So this is the building blocks of the business. [00:15:00] Yeah. So when we look at brand mm-hmm. There’s some of these businesses that I come across. That you just look at them and you’re like, this isn’t going anywhere.

[00:15:08] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:09] Nathan: It’s almost like you can sense that the founder either doesn’t have drive skill or taste mm-hmm.

Some version of that.

[00:15:15] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:16] Nathan: And so they’re like, this looks amazing. Or like, I’m so proud to bring this to market and you’re, and everyone else is like, either this is wrong in some way, or, I don’t know what’s wrong, but mm-hmm. It’s not gonna scale. I look at the brand that you have, so like the name?

[00:15:29] Michael: Yeah.

[00:15:30] Nathan: That’s one that I think is important. If we look at these components.

[00:15:34] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:34] Nathan: I think the name Nas B can work just fine.

[00:15:37] Michael: My wife, she’s an, uh, IP lawyer,

[00:15:40] Nathan: Uhhuh,

[00:15:40] Michael: and she says it’s great trademark because it doesn’t mean anything. Like, ’cause it’s, ’cause it’s the whole history of NAS B was like to, to be naturally organized be no or nos B.

And then, and I just bought it because it was a cool name, like with a Z in the middle and it was.com. So,

[00:15:55] Nathan: so I, um, appreciate that the trademark law aspect [00:16:00] is important to all that. I don’t really care about it

[00:16:02] Michael: and that’s why I, but my, my wife does so

[00:16:04] Nathan: Yes.

[00:16:04] Michael: And I have to by box.

[00:16:06] Nathan: Well, I mean, it’s a box you have to check.

[00:16:07] Michael: Yes.

[00:16:08] Nathan: Right. So when we rebranded from ConvertKit, which is very trademark

[00:16:12] Michael: Yes.

[00:16:12] Nathan: Lockdown to kit.

[00:16:13] Michael: Yeah.

[00:16:14] Nathan: Right. It’s, it is a much more difficult thing. We actually had to go and acquire a company to get a trademark for kit. Because we wouldn’t be able to

[00:16:21] Michael: Okay.

[00:16:21] Nathan: Uh, get it from scratch.

[00:16:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:23] Nathan: Right. So it’s really, it’s really important.

What I care more about is the feeling of the name.

[00:16:26] Michael: Okay.

[00:16:27] Nathan: You get some of these names that, that sound like default negative

[00:16:30] Michael: uhhuh

[00:16:31] Nathan: or like what emotion is it evoke? Mm-hmm. And so I think that Nas b as a name is, um, short spell enough. You have the.com and it doesn’t invoke any negative emotions. And so like, I’m like, name is good.

That’s not an issue. Uh, then if we go down, uh, I, I think that design is the next thing.

[00:16:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:53] Nathan: I don’t think that the design is that you all have. Is going to be the standout differentiator. [00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:00] Nathan: If you take a product like linear, they’re all in on design. Mm-hmm. It is the most incredible thing. And people, whether it’s a little UI interaction or their marketing site.

Mm-hmm. So that’s what happens when you go like,

[00:17:11] Michael: yeah,

[00:17:12] Nathan: design is your differentiator. It, I don’t think it is for you, you all, but I don’t see it as a detractor as well.

[00:17:16] Michael: No. Uh,

[00:17:18] Nathan: and so I think that from a brand perspective on name on design, like

[00:17:21] Michael: you’re

[00:17:22] Nathan: good. Um, on the team side. Tell me about the team a little bit.

[00:17:26] Michael: Yeah. So, um, uh, so we had to contract a little bit the team mm-hmm. Because we were, uh, at some point we were like 25 people and now were 15.

[00:17:33] Nathan: Okay.

[00:17:34] Michael: Uh, so, uh, so we have a small team now. Um, one big roadblock that we, that I have encountered throughout the years is that, uh, I could fire myself from all of the roles in the company except for the marketing role.

[00:17:50] Nathan: So gimme a breakdown of what. Uh, what teams you have. Mm-hmm. Yes. And how many people are in each

[00:17:57] Michael: one? Okay. So, uh, so, uh, uh, [00:18:00] in customer support, we have four people. Okay? Let’s, uh, let’s start with that. Um, and then, um, uh, we have, uh, five, uh, six developers. Sorry, six developers.

[00:18:14] Nathan: Okay.

[00:18:15] Michael: We have a designer and a QA guy.

So of these two guys,

[00:18:20] Nathan: okay.

[00:18:20] Michael: Yeah. And then we,

so

[00:18:22] Nathan: 10, 12.

[00:18:23] Michael: Yeah. And then we have three marketing people.

[00:18:25] Nathan: Okay?

[00:18:25] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:26] Nathan: All right. That’s good context. Mm-hmm. Now, as we, we will dive more into this in a second, but as we go to product,

[00:18:32] Michael: yeah.

[00:18:32] Nathan: I wanna pause here actually. And let’s go to these metrics, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:18:35] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:36] Nathan: Because there’s things I noticed about your product that make me think it’s not the issue that we’re facing. Mm-hmm. But I wanna dive into the, into the metrics. Um, have you heard, um, this idea of max MRR?

[00:18:48] Michael: No.

[00:18:48] Nathan: Um, so it’s this. If you think about. Any business that flatlines

[00:18:53] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:18:54] Nathan: Everyone thinks in terms of, um, growth curves, right?

Yeah. Like this is linear growth. This is exponential.

[00:18:59] Michael: [00:19:00] Yeah.

[00:19:00] Nathan: The most common growth curve that you’ll ever see is the S curve,

[00:19:04] Michael: is this curve. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:05] Nathan: Yeah. And so you think about, okay, what drives the S curve, and typically it’s that awareness

[00:19:11] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:19:12] Nathan: Is a fixed dollar amount.

[00:19:13] Michael: Yeah.

[00:19:14] Nathan: You know, or your awareness activation combines to mm-hmm.

A new, uh, monthly revenue of a certain amount. Yeah. And so let’s say we’re bringing in a thousand dollars of new MRR every month, and that retention or churn is always a percentage.

[00:19:30] Michael: Yes.

[00:19:30] Nathan: And so at some point,

[00:19:32] Michael: uh, yeah.

[00:19:33] Nathan: Uh, your. Your percentage of the total

[00:19:37] Michael: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Nathan: Becomes greater than whatever you’re bringing in.

Yes. And your scur flattens.

[00:19:41] Michael: Yes.

[00:19:41] Nathan: And so this happens to a bunch of different, you know, happens pretty much every business.

[00:19:45] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:46] Nathan: And so you either have to keep driving the combined

[00:19:50] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:19:50] Nathan: You know, the combined new

[00:19:52] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:19:54] Nathan: Um, higher and higher

[00:19:56] Michael: Yes.

[00:19:57] Nathan: To deal with your retention percentage.

[00:19:59] Michael: Mm-hmm. [00:20:00]

[00:20:00] Nathan: Uh, and it’s, it’s a very hard thing to do.

If you don’t, if you can’t overcome that, then it flat lines.

[00:20:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:06] Nathan: So what has. Awareness like we are top of funnel. Yeah. New. How do you measure that? Is that new users, new revenue?

[00:20:14] Michael: Yeah. New. Yeah, new users. You’re very much right. That the, the, the, the awareness is kind of a fixed thing. ’cause like there were times when we had like many new users, for example, from the US because for example, Michael Hat was like, like a big user and he was recommending Nspi.

So when he was recommending like, you know, people around him, people in his uh, uh, sphere were also trying out Nas B.

[00:20:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:35] Michael: And so this helped at the moment, you know, like he stopped recommending, he was like doing on the other things. This dried out. Uh, you know, and, and for me, um. We, uh, for example, uh, we lost both this kind of awareness in Japan that we had.

And in the US uh, uh, at some point now we’re slowly getting back, but [00:21:00] for example, but we did get new awareness in Poland, like in our local market. Okay. So, uh, we do have a, like, ’cause our app is translated several languages, but we have the Polish version and, um, then me being a Polish entrepreneur managed to get, get us some, you know, some press.

Mm-hmm. So that helped us, uh, grow a little bit in Poland. But, uh, right now the problem with awareness and uh, is because. Again, I, I, I don’t wanna blame it on others, but because of the big competitors that have so much money on marketing, like they bid on our keywords, they bid on everywhere. Yeah. So it’s hard for us to break through.

[00:21:36] Nathan: Right. Uh, so that’s a good point. Based on the price of your product.

[00:21:39] Michael: Yeah.

[00:21:39] Nathan: Right. So if we, um, I guess on the product, you’re roughly

[00:21:44] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:21:44] Nathan: Are you $8 per user?

[00:21:45] Michael: Yeah. Eight. $8 per month.

[00:21:46] Nathan: Okay. Mm-hmm. And that’s per user. And so yeah. You obviously have a big range within that.

[00:21:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:51] Nathan: But if I understand correctly, you haven’t been able to scale, like make ads profitable.

[00:21:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Nathan: And when I search for NAS b as a brand, I [00:22:00] think I saw five competitors that are all bidding on your brand keyword.

[00:22:03] Michael: Exactly.

[00:22:04] Nathan: Uh, and all of that. So awareness has been decreasing over time. Yes,

[00:22:08] Michael: yes.

[00:22:09] Nathan: And then what about activation? So when users

[00:22:13] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:22:13] Nathan: When you get that account created, what is trial? The paid, uh, or onboarded?

How has that been trending over time?

[00:22:19] Michael: Something, what we did was helpful is because we were, uh, not doing it for a long time, but we started, like, uh, two years ago, we started to having, uh, offering demo meetings. So like to schedule a demo of our software. Okay. You know, even though it’s cheap, we still thought, you know, let’s, let’s do demos.

And Magda who runs demos, um, she’s, uh, uh, she is amazing and, um, but, but if you ask her, uh, her conversion rate is only 50%. So, okay. So, uh, so she’s really struggling with the fact that 50% of people who shop for a demo with her are not signing up.

[00:22:57] Nathan: Do you have that funnel instrumented where you [00:23:00] can see

[00:23:00] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:23:01] Nathan: Um, you know, the, I guess if we were to map out the funnel

[00:23:06] Michael: Yeah.

[00:23:06] Nathan: You can see, uh, visit. To,

[00:23:11] Michael: to

[00:23:11] Nathan: demo account.

[00:23:12] Michael: I got account and to demo. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:14] Nathan: Uh, demo. And then, you know, you’d have paid mm-hmm. And then retained.

[00:23:20] Michael: Yeah. Retained. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:21] Nathan: Do you have, like, do you have a dashboard that shows you these stats?

[00:23:25] Michael: Not like this, no.

[00:23:27] Nathan: Okay. Any reason for it?

[00:23:28] Michael: No. We just like, uh, we started with the demos. It started working, so we didn’t, like we, we should, uh, so now we are trying to incorporate it more into a, like a kind of, kind of our flywheel. Yeah. Like, let’s say that that. You know, so we’re also promoting much more on social media, the mm-hmm.

The, the, the idea that you would get a demo with, uh, with Magda and also among, uh, you know, um, sending follow up emails to our customers that they haven’t scheduled demo. So like trying to, uh, uh, ’cause we see that once the demo is done

[00:23:57] Nathan: right,

[00:23:57] Michael: they, they, ’cause because what, what [00:24:00] what Magda does on the demo, she, um, not only just shows off our software, she actually asks questions about their business and she shows them exactly how they would do it.

And,

[00:24:09] Nathan: and does she live, does she work on marketing or in custom support? Yes. Marketing. Okay. Why don’t you write down, so I wanna keep going through all this. Yeah. But I wanna flag a few conversations for us to, to dig deeper in.

[00:24:17] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:18] Nathan: So why don’t you write down on this, uh, board, on this sheet, why don’t you write down metrics?

[00:24:22] Michael: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:24] Nathan: Perfect. Okay. So we’ll come back to metrics.

[00:24:26] Michael: Yeah.

[00:24:27] Nathan: But the over, how do you measure overall awareness? Is that visits to the website?

[00:24:32] Michael: Yeah, visits to the website.

[00:24:33] Nathan: And what does that trend look like over time? Flat.

[00:24:37] Michael: Flat.

[00:24:38] Nathan: Okay.

[00:24:39] Michael: Yeah.

[00:24:39] Nathan: Um, how does it compare to 2018 when you were 2016, you were at your peaks?

[00:24:46] Michael: It’s, it’s much lower than it used to be.

[00:24:49] Nathan: Okay. So why don’t you write down, um, let’s just put traffic

[00:24:53] Michael: mm-hmm. On

[00:24:54] Nathan: your metrics.

[00:24:55] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:56] Nathan: And that’s another thing that we’ll come back to.

[00:24:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:59] Nathan: [00:25:00] Perfect. Alright. So as we keep working our way through this

[00:25:03] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:25:03] Nathan: Uh, let’s go to expansion. Expansion is a very important metric for KISS business.

Um, we would be fighting a huge uphill battle if it wasn’t for expansion.

[00:25:12] Michael: Yeah.

[00:25:12] Nathan: So our expansion metric is, you know, as your audience grows, you know, if you started with 5,000 subscribers, you pay us, um, what is that? Not quite a hundred bucks a month, eight bucks a month, you know, and then later on you go, you know, that goes to a hundred and on from there, your expansion metric is number of seats, right?

Yes.

[00:25:31] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:32] Nathan: Um, how much of your. Net new MRR each month is driven by expansion.

[00:25:40] Michael: I don’t have it on from top of my head, but, um, it’s important. Like we, we see that, uh, they, so the, again, when, once they stick with the product, once they start using the product, they invite new users.

[00:25:52] Nathan: So maybe let’s look at it a different way.

Um, what percentage of your paying customers have more than one seat?

[00:25:59] Michael: Yeah. So, [00:26:00] uh, like 40, 40% of our customers have one seat.

[00:26:03] Nathan: Okay.

[00:26:03] Michael: And then, um, and then another 40%, two to two to three people. And our, uh, uh, nos bees freemium. So it’s like up to three people and three projects. It’s for free. Uh, but of course, if you want to have many projects, you have to have to pay the unlimited planner.

[00:26:21] Nathan: Okay. Uh, and 20% is greater than that?

[00:26:24] Michael: Yes.

[00:26:26] Nathan: Okay. And that’s based on Rev. Uh, ooh. This is based on number of customers,

[00:26:31] Michael: no number of paying customers. Yes.

[00:26:33] Nathan: Killer. The, the count of customers, not the revenue.

[00:26:35] Michael: Exactly, yes.

[00:26:35] Nathan: Because revenue would have fall,

[00:26:36] Michael: it’s, it’s the other way around. Yeah, exactly. Like exactly the 20% above that, that they make, you know,

[00:26:41] Nathan: 60%.

And, you know, so as if we come back to activation, you mentioned, uh, it being freemium.

[00:26:46] Michael: Yeah.

[00:26:46] Nathan: Do you, what are the free users doing? Are they coming in in high volumes? Are they, are they just a few of them? Are they upgrading to paid?

[00:26:54] Michael: Yeah, so usually they upgrade to paid whenever we, uh, launch like a [00:27:00] special offer promo for a year.

Okay. So for example, like, like, like the, like Friday offer, like when you pay for a year, you get extra months. So, um, so then they usually upgrade. If they don’t, they just, you know, ’cause uh, we have three projects. So they basically are, um, you know, uh, using our free plan, you know, like, like as much as they can, like the, the, the three projects.

And, uh, and you know, and for us it’s, it’s okay. Like, because, um, the thing is. Using our app is also a new habit. Mm-hmm. So I do appreciate, I, I do appreciate that, that they need more time to, to, to get used to NAS b so that they can really, you know, upgrade to premium. And, uh, very often the, the upgrades happens like, like a year later or two years later even.

[00:27:46] Nathan: Right.

[00:27:46] Michael: So it’s like a, it’s a late upgrade.

[00:27:49] Nathan: Okay. So if we were to, uh, make a, a very unscientific graph Yeah. Of free value mm-hmm. That you’re offering.

[00:27:58] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:59] Nathan: You know, there’s [00:28:00] the, you’re offering so little value on the free plan mm-hmm. That like why would someone ever use the product all the way to so much value on the free plan?

Yeah. Why would someone ever upgrade? There’s no reason to, to upgrade. Where are you in this spectrum based on your own perspective?

[00:28:15] Michael: Somewhere in the middle, I think.

[00:28:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:28:17] Michael: Yeah.

[00:28:17] Nathan: Like pretty, so like people are getting good value outta the free plan, but they’re definitely hitting limits and upgrading properly.

[00:28:23] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I would say, I would say something like

[00:28:24] Nathan: this, so we’re, we’re, we’re hanging out somewhere, right

[00:28:27] Michael: here, because we were giving five projects at some point.

[00:28:29] Nathan: Okay.

[00:28:29] Michael: And it was just, we, we, and we did measure that, that it was just, you know, giving too much.

[00:28:34] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:35] Michael: Um, uh, so, uh, uh, so we reduced it to three projects.

Uh, and then we, uh, so the difference also with the new nos B is, was the, was the also the switch that you can have up to three users because, um, I wanted to get, uh, for example, you know, uh, partners on board, like, so for example, business partners, they would sign up and then we have, they had to prove it, that once they sign up and start using nasbe together, [00:29:00] they do get it for, for their team.

Then

[00:29:04] Nathan: that’s another important point under the product. So you have what percentage of customers on the old version of nasbe?

[00:29:10] Michael: Uh, still, uh, 60%.

[00:29:12] Nathan: Okay. So the old is 60% new. Mm-hmm. 40%.

[00:29:16] Michael: Yeah.

[00:29:17] Nathan: And this has been out since 2020?

[00:29:20] Michael: Yes.

[00:29:21] Nathan: Okay. So there’s two things that I noticed in this. Mm-hmm. One, is there any way to sign up for the old nasby?

[00:29:28] Michael: No.

[00:29:28] Nathan: Anymore.

[00:29:28] Michael: Not anymore.

[00:29:29] Nathan: Okay. So you have, oh, this is interesting

[00:29:33] Michael: because we had it for, for, for quite a while and then we realized that it’s just confusing customers. So now when you wanna sign up for the classic nos B, we ask you to sign up for the new one. Mm-hmm. So, uh,

[00:29:44] Nathan: are people still trying to sign up for the classic one?

[00:29:46] Michael: Sometimes.

[00:29:47] Nathan: Okay.

[00:29:48] Michael: Sometimes,

[00:29:49] Nathan: um,

[00:29:50] Michael: and, but the, the thing is that, uh, the price is the same. Mm-hmm. So we did, uh, like two years ago, we did like a, uh, uh, pricing harmonization thing. Mm-hmm. So that the prices are the same [00:30:00] for both products. And then we also made it very easy to migrate. So also that, that if somebody is on the old one, they can migrate very easily to the new one.

[00:30:09] Nathan: Yeah. Okay. So the things that I’m noticing here

[00:30:12] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:30:12] Nathan: Are first there’s very little incentive for legacy customers to migrate.

[00:30:17] Michael: Yeah.

[00:30:18] Nathan: And then the second thing is there’s not actually that many new customers coming in.

[00:30:21] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:22] Nathan: Because over five years Yeah. I think

[00:30:24] Michael: there’s only for

[00:30:24] Nathan: you would replace a meaningful percentage of that.

Exactly.

[00:30:27] Michael: I was hoping

[00:30:28] Nathan: for that. Yeah. So that brings me back to this awareness problem. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Of we just don’t, people don’t know about this business.

[00:30:37] Michael: Yes. Yes. Right. That’s true.

[00:30:39] Nathan: Um, okay, so let’s keep moving down.

[00:30:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:42] Nathan: Under product, you know, retention is another factor.

[00:30:44] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:45] Nathan: What’s the, uh, monthly user revenue churn?

[00:30:48] Michael: Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s around around 3%, three and a half percent.

[00:30:51] Nathan: Okay. And what’s that done over time? Like, is it decreasing? Is it, is it flat?

[00:30:59] Michael: It used to be like [00:31:00] five, 6% percent, like, uh, two years ago. But, uh, we managed to, uh, to, to, to move it down to 3% over the last year. So it’s now it’s stable at this, at this level.

So

[00:31:11] Nathan: something that also happens in business is early on when you’re building a product.

[00:31:16] Michael: Yeah.

[00:31:16] Nathan: People,

[00:31:17] Michael: yes. I often,

[00:31:18] Nathan: well, they hear a revenue number or a, a churn number, like 6%, 9%. Mm-hmm. That sort of thing. And they point to this max MRR idea and they’re like, look, you are going to plateau. This business will never grow past it.

Like, you’re going to fail. You might as well quit and give up now. Yeah. People told me that with kit of like, sure, you know, sure you hit 10 KMRR, but based on that 10% monthly churn, you’ll never grow, grow past 20 KMRR.

[00:31:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:43] Nathan: And on one hand they were right.

[00:31:44] Michael: Yes.

[00:31:45] Nathan: Because the math formula does work out that way.

It is true. The thing that it doesn’t account for is that. Every month.

[00:31:52] Michael: Yeah.

[00:31:52] Nathan: The, you have like the customers that do stick around

[00:31:55] Michael: Yeah.

[00:31:56] Nathan: Tend to stick around for a very long time. Yes. Which is what you’re seeing here.

[00:31:59] Michael: [00:32:00] Yes.

[00:32:00] Nathan: And so the churn just naturally falls. Mm-hmm. I mean, kit did the same thing until, and, and we worked out it a lot, but like, to an extent, even just the, the physics of the customer base

[00:32:10] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:32:10] Nathan: Resulted in a, uh, at least a sub 4%.

[00:32:14] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:14] Nathan: Monthly churn. And so that, uh, that’s solid. That tells me that the product is solid. Um, like that’s what I

[00:32:21] Michael: have a cool story here about the Yeah. Old customers. So, uh, two years ago we did the, um, the price harmonization to make sure that the prices are the same because the prices were different.

So it was also like no incentive to go to the new one and all that stuff, so, right. We made the prices exactly the same, but before we did that, we emailed our customers saying, Hey guys, we’re gonna increase the prices. So, uh, because you’re, you, you, you are great customers. You’ve been great customers for years.

If you extend your account. Today with the old price, like you’re gonna secure like the old price for like, until, you know, you finish. So, um, I have customers that have accounts until [00:33:00] 2040

[00:33:01] Nathan: that have that prepaid for that long.

[00:33:03] Michael: Yeah.

[00:33:06] Nathan: As we record this in 2025.

[00:33:08] Michael: Exactly, exactly. So I can say that I’m, I’ve been running nose before 20 years and I have customers for like 35.

[00:33:15] Nathan: So let’s dive in. That brings us to the customer aspect. Um, you have, uh, diehard fans.

[00:33:21] Michael: Yes.

[00:33:23] Nathan: Um,

[00:33:24] Michael: I’m gonna say true fans. We have fans. Yeah. Have we have true fans? Yes.

[00:33:27] Nathan: Do you have, uh, are there any identifying characteristics of your best customers?

[00:33:34] Michael: I don’t know. Like it’s, I think it’s, uh, you know. The productivity, you know, buffs, productivity, people like people who like, you know, getting things done.

Who, like the methodology? Yeah. Who like the, you know, who like productivity just like I do.

[00:33:49] Nathan: Okay. So, you know, you wrote initial wave a lot on Yeah. Um, GTD.

[00:33:54] Michael: Yes.

[00:33:55] Nathan: What is happening? If we were to do a Google Trends search right now? Yeah. For GTD?

[00:33:59] Michael: No, I [00:34:00] mean,

[00:34:00] Nathan: what, like, what is that market doing?

[00:34:03] Michael: No, the market is, uh, is is more or less gone now.

I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s past its peak, you know. Mm-hmm. It’s, uh, um, I love David Allen and, uh, we are good friends. Mm-hmm. But, uh, but it’s like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s no longer a, a, a trend and it’s not No, no. And the thing is, because the book is pretty like old fashioned mm-hmm. So people are no longer resonating, uh,

[00:34:25] Nathan: with that.

Yeah. It’s not selling the number of copies and all that. Exactly.

[00:34:26] Michael: Exactly.

[00:34:26] Nathan: Okay. There’s something here. So why don’t you write true fans mm-hmm. On this sheet. Mm-hmm. And we’ll dive into it more.

[00:34:31] Michael: Okay.

[00:34:32] Nathan: And that brings us to our last metric, which is referrals.

[00:34:35] Michael: Yes.

[00:34:36] Nathan: So do you, do you track referrals in any way?

Yeah. And what are you noticing?

[00:34:41] Michael: Yeah. So thing is, the thing is, back in the day when we were like big with the GTD fans, the referrals were just completely organic and people were just recommending nos B left and right without any, taking any credit of it.

[00:34:54] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:54] Michael: And now we’ve built a referral program. Okay.

And, and, uh, and [00:35:00] it’s really built in, it’s, I I, I would like to say it’s very nicely built in that you can very easily generate and A URL and also you can add, you know, testimonials. So if you to nos B, you know, uh, somebody, then they open nos b.com. There is your testimonial. Mm-hmm. ’cause like you, you came from there and still, like, I don’t see, like we, when we track the, the clicks and then, and the, and the recommendations, there are not so many.

Like, uh,

[00:35:25] Nathan: okay, so there’s not many in total number.

[00:35:26] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:27] Nathan: But where, going back to the funnel view.

[00:35:29] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:35:30] Nathan: Where’s the breakdown in it? People aren’t generating those links. Those links aren’t getting shared. The shared links aren’t getting visits.

[00:35:37] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:38] Nathan: Or those visits aren’t converted to customers.

[00:35:40] Michael: I’ll have to check that.

[00:35:41] Nathan: Okay.

[00:35:42] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:43] Nathan: My guess is it’s pretty high in the funnel, right? Yeah. That they’re not being generated and, and those that are generated aren’t really getting

[00:35:50] Michael: exactly traffic. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:51] Nathan: So again, like awareness, awareness traffic mm-hmm. Is a, is a key issue.

[00:35:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:56] Nathan: Um, so referrals could, like, [00:36:00] referrals were a big opportunity in the past so they could be going forward.

[00:36:04] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:04] Nathan: Okay. So if we, if we break this down, as far as we know, we don’t have an activation issue.

[00:36:09] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:10] Nathan: We just don’t have enough top of funnel.

[00:36:12] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:12] Nathan: We don’t have an expansion issue. Um, no, because that seems fine. Yeah. Maybe that’s a lever that we could pull, but

[00:36:20] Michael: Yes. But it’s not that, that big

[00:36:21] Nathan: of a deal.

It’s an optimization and Yeah, exactly. We need more customers coming in. Yeah.

[00:36:25] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:25] Nathan: Retention is fine. Referrals are an opportunity.

[00:36:29] Michael: So one more question about awareness and, and everything. So, um, my problem was, it’s, it’s always been kind of how to, how to really sell

[00:36:39] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:36:39] Michael: What I’m doing because it’s like, you know, is it that to do app?

Is it that project management app? Is it like, like how do we compare ourselves, you know, to others? Or how do we like, kind of position ourselves like, uh, so, so one of the ideas we had was that, um, that uh, just like, kind of like you say, we help creators like, you know, uh, succeed and [00:37:00] make money on the internet.

Uh, something like that. Uh, so we said that we help small business owners get their private and business life organized mm-hmm. In a simple way. I don’t know if this is the, the right call. We tried with that and, you know, I’m not sure.

[00:37:18] Nathan: Okay. Uh, why don’t we write positioning down?

[00:37:21] Michael: Yeah. Right here.

[00:37:25] Nathan: Okay. These all I wanna touch on. Two quick things. My, my issues here.

[00:37:32] Michael: Yes.

[00:37:32] Nathan: We’ve got positioning, uh, team I want to get into.

[00:37:36] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:37] Nathan: Um, so let’s try team down right there. Okay.

[00:37:39] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:41] Nathan: Maybe those. All right. We’ve got plenty of things to cover here. Uhhuh. Um, I wanna touch on metrics really quickly. Mm-hmm.

Okay. It’s so, like, I cannot stress how important it is to have a couple of very simple dashboards

[00:37:56] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:37:57] Nathan: That show what is actually [00:38:00] happening in the business.

[00:38:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:01] Nathan: And so what you need is you need this funnel view.

[00:38:04] Michael: Yeah.

[00:38:05] Nathan: Um, and so, and then we need this net. Uh, new.

[00:38:09] Michael: Mm-hmm. Not new. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:11] Nathan: And so I need to be able to see, if we look at, um, and I guess we need conversions.

Mm-hmm. That’s, that conversions are in the funnel.

[00:38:18] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

[00:38:19] Nathan: Um, but I, I need you to be able to look at a metric and know exactly what’s happening. Mm-hmm. Um, because you can see that like, you know, on a weekly basis, uh Right. Yeah. Here’s how it’s fluctuating. Now I put that under funnel. That’s

[00:38:35] Michael: Yeah.

[00:38:35] Nathan: You get the idea.

[00:38:36] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:36] Nathan: Um, that should be right.

[00:38:39] Michael: Okay.

[00:38:39] Nathan: Um, but that you can know this is healthy. Mm-hmm. This is what’s going on. And then as you go to team, each of these metrics have to have someone responsible for it.

[00:38:50] Michael: Ah, right. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:51] Nathan: And so. If you break down the people working on marketing and growth.

Mm-hmm.

[00:38:57] Michael: Yes.

[00:38:57] Nathan: They have to be responsible for,

[00:38:59] Michael: for one of the [00:39:00] metrics.

[00:39:00] Nathan: One of the metrics.

[00:39:01] Michael: Okay.

[00:39:01] Nathan: I’m trying to think of how to phrase it. Yes. But somehow we need the, you know, it’s like I identify key metrics

[00:39:07] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:39:08] Nathan: Each with an owner.

[00:39:09] Michael: Yeah.

[00:39:10] Nathan: Um, how would we phrase that in a, in a clean, you’re the, you’re the guy.

Key metrics,

[00:39:14] Michael: but not with, with, yeah.

[00:39:15] Nathan: Yeah. Key metrics for the owner.

The

[00:39:16] Michael: owner. Yeah.

[00:39:17] Nathan: Yep.

[00:39:17] Michael: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:20] Nathan: Perfect. And then we’re going to need, so this is understood in this, the key metrics. We’re gonna have two, maybe three dashboards.

[00:39:27] Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:28] Nathan: And those are the things that are going to be viewed continually.

[00:39:32] Michael: Continually, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:34] Nathan: Um, so then the next thing that we need for accountability on this is we need meetings,

[00:39:39] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:39:40] Nathan: Just one, it could be 10 minutes long. Mm-hmm. But on a weekly basis, preferably on a Monday,

[00:39:46] Michael: yeah.

[00:39:46] Nathan: You’re going to get the people who are responsible and they’re going to report on here’s how my Metric is doing.

[00:39:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:52] Nathan: Uh, inside of Kit, we call these initiative meetings.

[00:39:55] Michael: Uhhuh,

[00:39:55] Nathan: we have four of them.

[00:39:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:39:57] Nathan: Um, and we have one around revenue, which is [00:40:00] really about our funnel, about leads, all of that. Mm-hmm. You know, awareness, like

[00:40:04] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] Nathan: Um, is search traffic doing what it’s supposed to? Is each of these things. Right.

And so each person is reporting on

[00:40:11] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:40:12] Nathan: I own the affiliate channel, here’s what affiliates has done, how’s performing over this week, here’s the actions we’re taking to fix it next.

[00:40:18] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:18] Nathan: And that was their 62nd update.

[00:40:21] Michael: Yeah.

[00:40:21] Nathan: And it’s just really about accountability.

[00:40:23] Michael: Okay. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:24] Nathan: And so, um, I think you need to add that meeting.

[00:40:28] Michael: Yes.

[00:40:29] Nathan: I think it should be, maybe initially it’s 30 minutes.

[00:40:32] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:32] Nathan: And you’ll get it dialed in mm-hmm. Where you’re really trying to find the signal versus noise. Um, and so I would put. Metrics with the owner, maybe just add another two item. Mm-hmm. Um, just say, uh, revenue meeting.

[00:40:45] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:45] Nathan: Right. That’s kinda the main thing that we care about.

Yeah.

[00:40:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:49] Nathan: And so now we’re gonna dive deep into each one of those. You know, customer support really ties into revenue, so

[00:40:56] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:40:57] Nathan: Because it’s a small team.

[00:40:58] Michael: Yeah.

[00:40:59] Nathan: I would just [00:41:00] have this like really tight, Hey, here’s our happiness metrics. Here’s how many tickets we answered. Mm-hmm. You know, here’s all, all of that

[00:41:07] Michael: happiness metrics.

[00:41:08] Nathan: Uh, yeah. And I, I just, I would just, it’s within this, within this meeting. So revenue, CX or uh, cs, however you cs.

[00:41:16] Michael: Yep. Mm-hmm.

[00:41:17] Nathan: Um, uh, and you’ll touch on the funnel review and all that. Yeah. So now the, now what we have is the business is broken out where people own different aspects of mm-hmm. The performance of it.

And there is weekly accountability to how is it performing.

[00:41:30] Michael: Okay.

[00:41:31] Nathan: And, and weekly awareness.

[00:41:32] Michael: Yes.

[00:41:33] Nathan: Right. If I were to ask your marketing team and what did traffic do last week,

[00:41:36] Michael: Uhhuh,

[00:41:37] Nathan: you think they’ll know off the top of their heads?

[00:41:38] Michael: No.

[00:41:38] Nathan: Yeah. And we didn’t take hit either.

[00:41:41] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:41:41] Nathan: Right. Now we do. Now everybody knows.

Right. Um, and you know, to fix it. Yes. Because, you know, do everything you can to fix it. Like did you do the actions?

[00:41:51] Michael: Yes, yes,

[00:41:51] Nathan: yes. Um, the other thing that you can get into is, uh, lead measures versus lag measures.

[00:41:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:57] Nathan: Right?

[00:41:58] Michael: Yeah.

[00:41:58] Nathan: Because basically did we do [00:42:00] our projects, which are leading indicators? Yeah.

And then when do we expect them to show up? To

[00:42:03] Michael: show up? Yeah.

[00:42:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm. In the lagging indicators.

[00:42:05] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:05] Nathan: All right. So now we have those things. So once we identify the metrics, we at least know what’s going on.

[00:42:10] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:11] Nathan: Um, you know, we’re getting into like what gets measured, gets managed. Yes. Uh, type of idea, but let’s go, let’s go to our next item, which is traffic.

[00:42:19] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:19] Nathan: And awareness as a whole.

[00:42:21] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:22] Nathan: You have felt firsthand what it looks like when, uh, you have a huge spike of awareness.

[00:42:28] Michael: Yes.

[00:42:29] Nathan: Right. You get this article. Yeah. You get, you know, all these other things. So the what as far as what’s worked for attention.

[00:42:36] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:37] Nathan: Lemme just, uh. We’ll write down attention, we’ll make a list.

[00:42:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:42] Nathan: So it’s been content.

[00:42:46] Michael: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:42:47] Nathan: Um, what else?

[00:42:50] Michael: Um, so we have, uh, uh, yeah, con, I mean, it’s

[00:42:53] Nathan: content from other people almost entirely, right?

[00:42:55] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:56] Nathan: Has it been content from you all

[00:42:57] Michael: as well? We have, uh, uh, uh, [00:43:00] so we have a, a biweekly podcast.

[00:43:02] Nathan: Okay. Does anyone listen to it?

[00:43:04] Michael: Yeah. I mean, we have like, how many people?

The, but not many, like 300, 400 people. Uh, oh. Per episode. Like, it’s 600 people per episode.

[00:43:11] Nathan: Okay.

[00:43:13] Michael: So, uh, so we have that podcast and, uh, because of the podcast, we also, uh, ’cause the podcast is also the, the idea for the podcast is also that in each episode we, uh, we try to, uh, also deal with some, um, advice for our users

[00:43:29] Nathan: if we shut down the podcast today.

[00:43:31] Michael: Yeah.

[00:43:31] Nathan: What would happen to traffic, to traffic of, to this funnel?

[00:43:35] Michael: I’m not sure. I have to figure it out.

[00:43:38] Nathan: Um, do you My gut feeling is nothing. Yeah.

[00:43:43] Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Could be.

[00:43:44] Nathan: Um, so I would look at, I would look hard at the content that you’re doing. Mm-hmm. What you’re spending

[00:43:49] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:50] Nathan: To create that. And if it’s creating results,

[00:43:52] Michael: if it’s, if it’s creative result Yeah.

[00:43:53] Nathan: Now it might not be affecting, um, the mm-hmm. The growth.

[00:43:57] Michael: Yeah.

[00:43:57] Nathan: But it might be helping with retention because your true [00:44:00] fans absolutely love it.

[00:44:01] Michael: Yeah.

[00:44:01] Nathan: And this is a good touch point.

[00:44:02] Michael: Yes.

[00:44:03] Nathan: But you really watch for these things that you’re doing that, uh, it’s emotion that you’re going through, but it’s not Yeah.

[00:44:10] Michael: Yeah. That’s true. It’s like when I heard, uh, one of your previous shows, uh, one of the mistakes people make that they don’t reach past 1 million is they stick to what’s something that worked in the past. Yes. But, you know,

[00:44:24] Nathan: or another interesting exercise, if you look at your team mm-hmm. If we dive into that one for a second.

Yeah. If you imagine this, this little box

[00:44:34] Michael: Yeah.

[00:44:34] Nathan: That’s your company. Mm-hmm. Sometimes these teams and has done this too often.

[00:44:39] Michael: Yeah.

[00:44:40] Nathan: Everything, all the attention and energy,

[00:44:44] Michael: uhhuh

[00:44:44] Nathan: and conversations and everything else,

[00:44:47] Michael: Uhhuh

[00:44:48] Nathan: is inside the box. Yeah. You know?

[00:44:49] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:50] Nathan: And you can fall into this trap with the metrics, right?

[00:44:53] Michael: Yeah.

[00:44:53] Nathan: Now four of us are meeting about what’s happening with the metrics, and this is moving in this way. And then if you could close the loop with whoever and meet with this other [00:45:00] person, and all we’re doing is we’re just going around in circles inside our little box.

[00:45:07] Michael: Yeah.

[00:45:07] Nathan: Right?

[00:45:07] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:09] Nathan: And customers don’t know.

Customers don’t care, and all of that. And what you have to do instead mm-hmm. Is look at, okay, how much energy is going outside of the box? Outside of the

box.

[00:45:19] Nathan: Right. And it could be in improving the product, it could be in, uh, marketing partner conversations. Mm-hmm. Um, it could be in creating content, it could be in customer support, getting out there.

I find it helpful to break down a team and look at what’s inside the box.

[00:45:37] Michael: Yeah. And

[00:45:38] Nathan: what’s inside and what’s outside the box and how has that changed over time?

[00:45:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:41] Nathan: Something for us, we, when we were in this crazy growth mode

[00:45:46] Michael: uhhuh,

[00:45:47] Nathan: we went from, in a six month period from 10,000 of MRR to a hundred thousand.

[00:45:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:45:52] Nathan: And everything that we did was outside of the box

[00:45:56] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:45:56] Nathan: Right. Because people were like, oh, your meeting [00:46:00] structure is broken. You’re like, yep.

[00:46:02] Michael: We don’t,

[00:46:03] Nathan: we don’t, we don’t care. We’re just trying to keep up. We’re just, you know, it was webinars, it was all of these things. How do we, um, how do we get out there?

[00:46:11] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:12] Nathan: Uh, so I would really look at that, uh, from your team.

[00:46:15] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:15] Nathan: What amount of these people, what amount is internal versus what is actually

[00:46:20] Michael: external?

[00:46:21] Nathan: Uh, what impacts customers? What impacts awareness?

[00:46:24] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:26] Nathan: Alright, so we’re talking about traffic and attention. So content, these big write-ups, Uhhuh, you know, I, which I bucketed under press.

It’s not true press necessarily, but

[00:46:35] Michael: I wanna give you an example of something that did work Okay. Uh, uh, uh, recently. So, um, so we had this, uh, I had this idea that, uh, that, uh, there are these productivity consultants or mm-hmm. Coaches and, uh, and some of them are really, they have their own kind of, you know, special secret sauce of how they’re teaching people productivity.

And I, I was, uh, naive enough that I thought, you know, maybe they could teach their methods [00:47:00] using our tool. Okay. Because our tool is pretty simple to use. It’s pretty simple to onboard. So they could, you know, have their content there, but, uh, you know, uh, and teach their productivity principles using our very flexible, very cool, mm-hmm.

App. And, uh, basically it mostly failed. Uh, so we have this, this, uh, this expert program. We have a few experts onboarded. Um. Except for one person. So there is this, uh, uh, uh, there’s this, uh, woman in Poland. Uh, she’s a consultant and she, um, she had this, uh, idea that she is teaching other business women, uh, how to get their, uh, you know, uh mm-hmm.

Files organized on the computer. And then when, once, and she was so good with this, then they, they later asked her, can you teach us, you know, project management? And she’s doing it with us. Okay. So using our tool, so for example, whenever, uh, she onboards new customers

[00:47:51] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:47:52] Michael: Uh, to her, like she sells her course, uh, they, each of these cus this new customers, they get, uh, uh, a free Nosb account [00:48:00] for, for duration of the course.

[00:48:01] Nathan: Okay.

[00:48:02] Michael: And then she basically does the onboarding for us because she teaches them how to set up their company using NOS B. And then after that they usually. Extend their subscription. And, uh, so it’s a win-win, win. Everybody’s happy. They, they are happy because they have set up their business inside of our app and they feel very well organized.

She delivered her course, sold the course, and the, the, the, the customers are happy and, uh, the extent not speed subscription.

[00:48:32] Nathan: Okay. I love that. So that’s, that’s an example of a partner.

[00:48:34] Michael: Yeah.

[00:48:35] Nathan: Right. Who is both teaching, here’s how to use the product, uh, let me help you use it, and all of that.

[00:48:39] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:40] Nathan: You said that it failed all in all of those cases except for her.

[00:48:44] Michael: Exactly.

[00:48:44] Nathan: Was that because everyone else is different because your offer was different?

[00:48:49] Michael: Uh,

[00:48:49] Nathan: like

[00:48:49] Michael: what I, what I um, so I, I realized that some, some of the, some of these people, uh, they said that they, they wanna be platform agnostic, so they don’t want to, you [00:49:00] know, commit to one app because there are so many apps and because customers demand that, uh, and she was the only one who had basically the, the, the gut to say, no, no, no, I’m gonna just.

Teach you through nsbe if you want to, you know, learn from in a different tool. Not here, because I am great at NSBE and I have my, you know, content and all my, you know, everything prepared with nsbe. And so she, she was gutsy enough to just use our app and because, uh, we were helping her like a lot ’cause, uh, like we did special integrations for her so that everything, you know, so we are like, we have a great, you know, relationship like this.

Um, but like others, they didn’t kind of, they couldn’t, uh, like, you know, um, um, make the jump to, to say that.

[00:49:43] Nathan: Okay. So I wanna,

[00:49:47] Michael: yeah.

[00:49:48] Nathan: Um, if someone wants to be platform agnostic

[00:49:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:49:51] Nathan: Which makes sense, right? Mm-hmm. They want their content to live and someone’s saying, Hey, does this still work? If I want to use any of these other, these other tools?

[00:49:59] Michael: Yeah.

[00:49:59] Nathan: Um, [00:50:00] typically

[00:50:01] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:50:02] Nathan: It’s an incentive. Incentive problem.

[00:50:04] Michael: Maybe. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:05] Nathan: And I would say, you know, show me the incentives and I’ll show you the outcome.

[00:50:08] Michael: Okay.

[00:50:09] Nathan: And so in this case, maybe the incentives of I can create less content and training. Mm-hmm. I can make better outcomes for my customers and I will get all of the support from Nasbe, like mm-hmm.

That to her was worth it. But to everyone else, they looked at that equation and said, it’s not worth it to me.

[00:50:26] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:50:27] Nathan: And so I would find out what, what incentives do these people actually care about?

[00:50:32] Michael: Yeah.

[00:50:32] Nathan: Maybe first. Mm-hmm. Of partners. How many people like her exist? Are there thousands, tens of thousands?

Like, are there enough?

[00:50:40] Michael: I don’t know. I we’re, we’re, we’re trying to find out.

[00:50:44] Nathan: Um, so within this,

[00:50:46] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:50:47] Nathan: We need incentives.

[00:50:49] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:52] Nathan: We need to know the total addressable market.

[00:50:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:50:57] Nathan: Um, gut feeling

[00:50:59] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:50:59] Nathan: [00:51:00] Based on the millionaire R that we’re at now.

[00:51:02] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:03] Nathan: And what it would take

[00:51:04] Michael: Yeah. To, to,

[00:51:05] Nathan: to increase awareness. I am with a hundred percent confidence. The total adjustable market is big enough.

[00:51:12] Michael: Uhhuh,

[00:51:12] Nathan: like you,

[00:51:14] Michael: you think so?

[00:51:14] Nathan: Yeah. There’s no limitation on number of partners.

Mm-hmm. And the problem is that you’re,

[00:51:18] Michael: yeah.

[00:51:18] Nathan: They don’t know your products exists. Mm-hmm. And they don’t know

[00:51:22] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:22] Nathan: That they don’t feel that the incentives are strong enough

[00:51:24] Michael: Exactly.

[00:51:24] Nathan: To partner with you.

[00:51:25] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:26] Nathan: So how are you gonna fix that?

[00:51:30] Michael: Well try to pursue them better. Okay. And find better incentives for them.

[00:51:34] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:35] Michael: So maybe do it like, like, like, like you did with your first customer, like really target individually and try to convince them individually.

[00:51:42] Nathan: Yeah. So let’s look at, you know, one way to get attention is direct sales.

[00:51:46] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:50] Nathan: I love this method because it is entirely within my control.

[00:51:53] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:53] Nathan: Instead of saying, oh, if I do position this in this way, will it get picked up by someone else? Mm-hmm. All this stuff. Mm-hmm. Like, [00:52:00] that’s so hard.

[00:52:01] Michael: Yeah.

[00:52:01] Nathan: But direct sales is like, well, who did you reach out to? Were they with the right people?

Did you have good copy? You know, and how long have you been doing this? And what was your follow-up like? Like it is entirely on you.

[00:52:12] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:13] Nathan: And so I, you know, love and hate it

[00:52:16] Michael: for

[00:52:16] Nathan: both those reasons.

[00:52:18] Michael: Yeah.

[00:52:18] Nathan: Um, so the problem here with direct sales in this business

[00:52:24] Michael: is that it’s not,

[00:52:26] Nathan: is this right

[00:52:26] Michael: here? Yeah, exactly.

It’s cheap.

[00:52:28] Nathan: They dollars a month. You can’t afford to, you can’t build a sales team. And so that’s why it’s like, okay, we can’t do direct sales for customers.

[00:52:35] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:36] Nathan: Right. That’s not gonna work. Mm-hmm. Unless you make up some enterprise product and

[00:52:43] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:43] Nathan: All that, that feels like a really big pivot.

[00:52:45] Michael: No, exactly.

Yeah.

[00:52:46] Nathan: Okay. But we can do it.

[00:52:48] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:48] Nathan: For partners.

[00:52:49] Michael: Exactly.

[00:52:50] Nathan: Um

[00:52:50] Michael: mm-hmm. That’s true.

’cause then we have the scale.

[00:52:58] Nathan: Yep. So the things that [00:53:00] it, like this is entirely new motion to build up.

[00:53:03] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:03] Nathan: But the things that I like about this are that in the past you have had partners

[00:53:09] Michael: Yes.

[00:53:09] Nathan: That find success, that love the product. All of these things, like the core ingredients are there. I think it’s the go to market motion that’s not.

[00:53:19] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:21] Nathan: And so if I were diving in and running this

[00:53:27] Michael: mm-hmm. Lemme

[00:53:28] Nathan: think of what I would do.

The things Yeah. That I’m trying to figure out. I would go, I would figure out positioning.

[00:53:37] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:40] Nathan: And then I’d figure out partners.

[00:53:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:42] Nathan: And they go hand in hand,

[00:53:43] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:53:44] Nathan: Right. We need to figure out what is the positioning that resonates both with the partners and with the people that the partners reach.

[00:53:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:51] Nathan: But then I would be all in on this direct sales motion mm-hmm. Of how do I

[00:53:55] Michael: get to the

[00:53:56] Nathan: partners, line up as many partnerships as PO as possible. Mm-hmm. And then [00:54:00] within those, within those partnerships, you’re really gonna have, I believe, two core methodology or two core, uh, conversion. Mm-hmm. Methods, one’s gonna be webinars.

[00:54:13] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:15] Nathan: And then the other, um, is probably like embedded courses.

[00:54:21] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:23] Nathan: That’s what this one one was so successful with. Right.

[00:54:25] Michael: Uhhuh? Yes.

[00:54:27] Nathan: Both of these take time to activate, which can be,

[00:54:29] Michael: yeah.

[00:54:30] Nathan: Can be difficult. Okay. So before we go further, I wanna take a step back, Uhhuh, and look at everything that we’ve mapped out.

[00:54:35] Michael: Yeah.

[00:54:36] Nathan: So we’ve identified that awareness is the biggest problem in the business.

[00:54:39] Michael: Yes.

[00:54:40] Nathan: We’ve identified, we have a flag around team, something around positioning. Positioning. And we need, we need to pull all of this together into a go-to-market function. Yeah. That’s gonna drive awareness and traffic.

[00:54:53] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:53] Nathan: And we need to build a team and metrics that can turn this into a machine.

[00:54:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:58] Nathan: So [00:55:00] now lemme think about where we wanna go. I think the, the problem that we need to solve next mm-hmm. Is positioning.

[00:55:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:06] Nathan: Because what worked for the position before is not working now.

[00:55:10] Michael: Exactly.

[00:55:11] Nathan: What experiments have you run around positioning?

What have you, what have you tried? Is there any gut feeling on. Um, or resonates.

[00:55:20] Michael: Yeah.

[00:55:20] Nathan: So what would resonate?

[00:55:21] Michael: Yeah. So, uh, as I mentioned, we try to, you know, position to small business owners mm-hmm. Like to, to, to like, you know, get them organized and, uh, that we, I was trying also to play on the, on the, you know, on the value of, of, of, of the software that, you know, that like this kind of idea that, uh, you know, uh, if you just start using nos b you will, you know, instantly save more than an hour per month.

So basically it pays for itself already. Yeah. This kind of things. So,

[00:55:51] Nathan: okay.

[00:55:52] Michael: Um, yeah. So

[00:55:56] Nathan: let’s,[00:56:00]

what is the promise of NAS B? Why should I sign up?

[00:56:09] Michael: The promise of NAS B is that, uh, you will have everything. Organized.

[00:56:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:56:17] Michael: And, uh, you know, on your phone

[00:56:20] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:56:21] Michael: Everywhere. It syncs everywhere. And, and, um, together with your team, you’ll know exactly who’s working on what and, and, uh, uh

[00:56:34] Nathan: oh. And that will result in me saving time

[00:56:37] Michael: Exactly.

Away.

[00:56:44] Nathan: Ah, no, that’s okay. Um, isn’t this the promise of Asana, cello, clickup, everybody else

[00:56:53] Michael: could be. Mm.

[00:56:55] Nathan: So why am why nasbe?

[00:56:57] Michael: Because it’s simpler.

[00:56:58] Nathan: Okay.

[00:56:59] Michael: It’s [00:57:00] simpler. So it’s, uh,

[00:57:00] Nathan: why do I care that it’s simpler? Simpler is limiting.

[00:57:03] Michael: Yeah. But simpler is limiting. But on the other hand, simpler makes your team and everyone on your team use it more.

Because if.

[00:57:12] Nathan: Okay.

[00:57:12] Michael: Because the, the problem is that, so I have this problem with, with business owners. Business owners say, yeah, but I want this, this, and this, and this, and these features. And we have tried that and we have tested it. And when you introduce a complicate piece of software to your team, nobody uses it.

While when we introduce nsbe, because it’s, it’s such a simple structure of projects, tasks, and comments.

[00:57:32] Nathan: Why does it matter to use it more?

[00:57:34] Michael: Because then, uh, like all the, like, so just like your metrics that we don’t have, like everything else is in nsbe. So you’ll know exactly who’s working on what, which projects are open, which tasks are open.

And if a task has an issue, you can comment and you can just iron out the issue. So, you know, so for example, from a business. Owner standpoint. Uh, I don’t have to ask my, my, my team members, uh, what’s the [00:58:00] status of things. I can just log into NSBE and just I can see exactly what’s the status of projects and what’s going on.

[00:58:06] Nathan: Okay. So it runs the business all, but I wanna, I wanna like drill in on this. Yeah. Yeah. Use it more. ’cause you’re, you almost have something here. Um,

[00:58:14] Michael: almost.

[00:58:16] Nathan: Okay. So I, if, let’s go the other way.

[00:58:19] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:19] Nathan: I have the most advanced, most sophisticated project management tool. It does everything.

[00:58:25] Michael: Yeah.

[00:58:28] Nathan: And my team doesn’t actually use it

[00:58:29] Michael: exactly

[00:58:30] Nathan: what happens.

[00:58:31] Michael: Uh, like it useless like your uh uh. You do I two things or you just drop it or you invest lots of time to force people and you know, teach them mm-hmm. The software so that they eventually start using it.

[00:58:48] Nathan: Yeah. And if we were to do some very fancy stick figure drawing, right. Uhhuh, that is our stick figure person trying to push this boulder off a giant hill.

[00:58:59] Michael: Exactly, [00:59:00] exactly

[00:59:00] Nathan: right.

[00:59:00] Michael: Yeah.

[00:59:01] Nathan: If you run, lead a marketing team, if you lead anything else, do you wanna spend all of your time

[00:59:06] Michael: Yeah. Pushing,

[00:59:07] Nathan: trying to get your team to adopt a tool.

[00:59:10] Michael: Yeah.

[00:59:11] Nathan: That has endless friction.

[00:59:13] Michael: Yeah.

[00:59:13] Nathan: Or do you want them to use the tool that. They’re gonna actually use,

[00:59:19] Michael: I’ll give you an example.

So one of our customers is a construction company.

[00:59:22] Nathan: Okay?

[00:59:23] Michael: And they have, uh, um, all these projects in nos b as as a different construction sites, right? And he has all his team, I mean all of the team, the, the plumbers, like the everyone who’s on in the construction in NOS B.

[00:59:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:37] Michael: And they update their tasks inside of NOS B.

And he said to me when I was interviewing him and I was asking how the business is going, he told me now I’m at the stage that if I would tell my team that I’m gonna take nos B away from them, they would kill me because they got used to using it. And they know it’s so simple, they can update their things and from his point of view, he can be [01:00:00] visiting his construction sites by just basically opening the projects.

So, so, uh, so this is what happens when a success, when they actually use Yes,

[01:00:14] Nathan: I think that. This is your promise.

[01:00:18] Michael: Yeah. It could be. You’re right.

[01:00:19] Nathan: And I think it’s, it’s, uh, I think it’s a very powerful promise because you can sell the pain

[01:00:25] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:00:25] Nathan: Of what happens if they don’t use it.

[01:00:28] Michael: Exactly.

[01:00:28] Nathan: Right. Because you’re constantly chasing people. Did you update this thing? Yeah. Does that Oh yeah, I would, but I gotta do it on my computer.

It’s gonna take so long.

[01:00:36] Michael: Exactly.

[01:00:36] Nathan: Hold on. Did you want that in a task, in a project, or

[01:00:39] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:00:40] Nathan: You know, all of these things.

[01:00:41] Michael: Exactly.

[01:00:42] Nathan: Or you say, look, we strip away everything else. This is the tool that you actually use.

[01:00:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:48] Nathan: And that is what gets the, the results.

[01:00:50] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:50] Nathan: And so if I were you,

[01:00:52] Michael: yeah.

[01:00:53] Nathan: I would fix your positioning.

[01:00:55] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:56] Nathan: So let’s write this down as our to do

[01:00:58] Michael: fix positioning.

[01:00:58] Nathan: Fix positioning,

[01:00:59] Michael: Uhhuh. [01:01:00]

[01:01:00] Nathan: And we’re not gonna get to the positioning in a one hour mm-hmm. Podcast episode.

[01:01:05] Michael: No.

[01:01:05] Nathan: But we’ve gotten to like the essence of the core promise. Mm-hmm.

Right.

[01:01:10] Nathan: And. I think that that,

[01:01:13] Michael: yeah,

[01:01:14] Nathan: I like, because everyone is going to say

[01:01:16] Michael: Uhhuh,

[01:01:17] Nathan: why?

[01:01:19] Michael: Yeah,

[01:01:19] Nathan: why Nasbe versus Clickup. Yeah. Why Nasbe versus whoever.

[01:01:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:23] Nathan: And I, as a partner can say, because NAS B is the tool that your team will actually use.

[01:01:27] Michael: Exactly.

[01:01:29] Nathan: And it’s not a six month adoption process. It’s not chasing them down. Do all this. Like, you just actually use it and you know what, and here’s the benefits of actually using it.

[01:01:39] Michael: You know, sometimes we have, we’ve had these situations and sometimes a team signed up mm-hmm. And the person complained to us that the team is not using it, and then they, they signed up for a demo with Magda, the whole team. So like, she shows up on the Zoom and then there is the whole team, you know, looking at her and she does a demo.

And after this one demo of half an hour, like it’s done, [01:02:00] they’re just like, then, then after a month or they, they extend their plan for a year or something. Like they, uh, so it’s very, in that sense, we’ve been very successful with. Right. It’s really, you know, the, when the team sees that it’s only this, you can add a task like this, and it’s so simple.

They, they get the aha moment, you know?

[01:02:19] Nathan: Yep. Okay. So we’re gonna have to fix positioning. We’re really dive in in this.

[01:02:25] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:26] Nathan: The tool that’s actually used, you’ve got, you’ve got some fancy illustrations, but, uh,

[01:02:30] Michael: exactly. I’ll,

[01:02:31] Nathan: I’ll let you know my hourly rate later. All right. Thank you. I’ll read in your marketing site with my stick figures.

It’d be great.

[01:02:37] Michael: Yes.

[01:02:40] Nathan: Once we fix the positioning, now we can go out to partners.

[01:02:43] Michael: Yes.

[01:02:44] Nathan: So now we need a motion to, like, to go out to, to partners.

[01:02:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:48] Nathan: And how do we identify the right people?

[01:02:51] Michael: Yeah.

[01:02:51] Nathan: Um, I, I think if, so, if we, if you write down partners mm-hmm. As a to do, and then under [01:03:00] that.

Uh, maybe our sub-bullets would be, uh, identify.

[01:03:10] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:11] Nathan: And then, um,

[01:03:15] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:03:16] Nathan: Let’s go incentives.

[01:03:17] Michael: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Incentives.

[01:03:23] Nathan: And then identify incentives, let’s just say outbound.

[01:03:27] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:28] Nathan: So within this, because I, I believe that there’s almost an endless number of partners, right? Way more than, than you. I think so

[01:03:39] Michael: too. Right.

[01:03:41] Nathan: So what I would do is I would identify all the possible partners.

[01:03:45] Michael: Okay.

[01:03:46] Nathan: Uh, AI is really good at this.

[01:03:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:48] Nathan: Uh, so you can, you can help with that. You know, who are, I have this content creator who are a hundred people like them.

[01:03:55] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:56] Nathan: You know, that sort of thing. Go back to everyone who sent referrals in the [01:04:00] past.

[01:04:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:00] Nathan: And see what are they up to now? Are they still Oh

[01:04:02] Michael: yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um.

[01:04:04] Nathan: Figuring out, I would say, Hey, we rebuilt Nas B from the ground up.

Mm-hmm. And it’s incredible. You don’t need to mention that you did it in 2020. That was five years ago.

[01:04:11] Michael: Yeah.

[01:04:12] Nathan: You rebuilt Nas B from the ground up and it’s incredible.

[01:04:14] Michael: Yeah.

[01:04:15] Nathan: And you’re gonna nail the positioning on this. Mm-hmm. You have the case study.

[01:04:22] Michael: Yeah.

[01:04:22] Nathan: Right. So, um, let’s just, where are we gonna put this?

Maybe right here. Uh, create case study.

[01:04:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:33] Nathan: We, we have one or two successful partners who are killing it. Right. So create case study on them.

[01:04:38] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:40] Nathan: Um, and so we can go out with that. We’re going to

[01:04:44] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:04:45] Nathan: Talk about here’s how we’d love to partner.

[01:04:47] Michael: Yeah.

[01:04:48] Nathan: Um, do you, what’s the incentive structure look like?

Because that’s the next thing we need to go

[01:04:52] Michael: to. Yeah. For, so, so, uh, for the, uh, for the partner. Yeah. So, um, they have, um, [01:05:00] uh. So when we have the, the affiliate program, so the referral program, uh, in our referral program, like we give 25% after, uh, revenue for the first two years of a customer.

[01:05:10] Nathan: Okay.

[01:05:10] Michael: And when you are a partner, you get 30% or more sometimes, uh mm-hmm.

And for three years. So it’s a better incentive in that sense. Plus the other incentives are what I mentioned. You work with us together, direct line to us, we work with you, we build some features just for you or kind of for you first.

[01:05:30] Nathan: Mm-hmm. ‘

[01:05:31] Michael: cause this is also our way of, um, sometimes put typing a feature that, that, you know, if we have one case study that they will actually use it.

Right. Then we can later build the feature for everyone else.

[01:05:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay. So what I would do is

I’m thinking about these incentives.

[01:05:49] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:52] Nathan: Because. Uh, like you often do the math. Yeah. And someone might not make very much money

[01:05:58] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:05:59] Nathan: From [01:06:00] one of these, these deals for a while.

[01:06:01] Michael: Yeah.

[01:06:02] Nathan: Right. Let’s say that I do a webinar to mm-hmm. Uh, a hundred people.

[01:06:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:07] Nathan: Or a hundred people show up live to a 10% convert.

[01:06:10] Michael: Yeah.

[01:06:10] Nathan: You know, now we’re like, okay, we actually only when now we’re selling $80 a month.

[01:06:17] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:17] Nathan: I’m making 30% of that, that, that. Mm-hmm. Right. And so we’re like,

[01:06:21] Michael: Hmm,

[01:06:21] Nathan: okay.

[01:06:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:23] Nathan: Do a webinar with me and you’ll make 25, 30, $40 a month. Like

[01:06:27] Michael: uhhuh

[01:06:27] Nathan: not super compelling.

[01:06:28] Michael: Yeah.

[01:06:29] Nathan: And so you might need to figure out ways to front load, uh,

[01:06:33] Michael: ah, yeah.

[01:06:33] Nathan: Some of that

[01:06:34] Michael: uhhuh,

[01:06:34] Nathan: you might not need to do it long term.

[01:06:36] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:37] Nathan: But because awareness is such a huge problem.

[01:06:40] Michael: Yes.

[01:06:41] Nathan: If you allocated. $5,000 a month

[01:06:45] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:06:46] Nathan: Of your budget, which might be a big part of the marketing budget.

[01:06:48] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:49] Nathan: To just say, Hey, I will pay you

[01:06:51] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:06:51] Nathan: To do this webinar.

[01:06:53] Michael: Okay.

[01:06:53] Nathan: And teach this workshop and to implement NAS B and you’ll make this money upfront.

Mm-hmm. Like it is more of a sponsorship with this like

[01:06:59] Michael: uhhuh

[01:06:59] Nathan: long [01:07:00] tail partner.

[01:07:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:01] Nathan: Then you could learn faster.

[01:07:03] Michael: Yes.

[01:07:03] Nathan: Because my worry is that the incentives

[01:07:06] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:07:07] Nathan: Uh, that we have under our partner program mm-hmm. That 30% is not gonna be compelling enough

[01:07:11] Michael: Yeah. To try

[01:07:12] Nathan: to try until we have scale.

Mm-hmm. And then we’re not gonna learn enough.

[01:07:16] Michael: Yeah.

[01:07:16] Nathan: And it’s just gonna feel like our outbound function failed.

[01:07:18] Michael: Yeah.

[01:07:19] Nathan: When in reality there there’s a lot more that, um, could go out with it.

Mm-hmm.

[01:07:23] Nathan: So I would spend a lot of time on the incentives

[01:07:27] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:07:27] Nathan: And I would be willing to front load some of those incentives.

[01:07:31] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:32] Nathan: Um. Would you be able to allocate $5,000 a month?

[01:07:37] Michael: Yeah.

[01:07:38] Nathan: Okay.

[01:07:38] Michael: Sure.

[01:07:39] Nathan: Would you be able to allocate 10,000 a month or is that So be tight. Not sure.

[01:07:42] Michael: I’ll, I’ll have to check. Mm-hmm.

[01:07:43] Nathan: Um, but that would be the kind of thing. Yeah. You know, if you could say, well say 10,000, if that’s the number we’re working with, maybe you’re doing two, two that are big.

[01:07:54] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:55] Nathan: Like $3,000 each or something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, and then you’re doing a few [01:08:00] that are, um, small Yeah. Where you’re saying, Hey, we’ll pay you a thousand dollars to this webinar. Mm-hmm. All of that. And then they’re, um, they’re in it with you and they earn on the long tail.

[01:08:09] Michael: Yeah.

[01:08:09] Nathan: And you can start to get this motion going.

Mm-hmm.

[01:08:11] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:11] Nathan: Doesn’t mean you need to do it long term.

[01:08:13] Michael: Yeah.

[01:08:14] Nathan: But then you’ll have more case studies, you’ll have more numbers.

[01:08:16] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:17] Nathan: Um, and, and on from there. Okay. Now let’s talk about the outbound function.

[01:08:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:23] Nathan: So now you need someone who is, uh, doing that outbound sales.

[01:08:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:30] Nathan: Um. Is that you, is that someone else?

Like what’s your good instinct on it?

[01:08:36] Michael: Um, yeah, this, in the beginning, that would be me and probably, uh, one more person. One

[01:08:44] Nathan: of your team members?

[01:08:44] Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:08:46] Michael: Yeah. Especially, especially in the beginning. Uh, you always said that it’s good that we do it actually to see, uh,

[01:08:52] Nathan: I think so You’ll get, also get a higher conversion rate just as the, as the founder, ceo, EO

[01:08:56] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:08:56] Nathan: You know, you have the passion for the product that will come through.

[01:08:59] Michael: Mm-hmm. [01:09:00]

[01:09:00] Nathan: Um, so I think that you need a way

[01:09:02] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:09:03] Nathan: To tee up as many of these opportunities as possible. Yes. Um, I think the ai mm-hmm. Sales development reps mm-hmm. Are getting pretty good.

[01:09:10] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:11] Nathan: Um, so I would go read, there’s articles from Jason Lemkin.

Uhhuh from Saster.

[01:09:16] Michael: Okay.

[01:09:16] Nathan: Uh, on that exact process,

[01:09:18] Michael: Uhhuh,

[01:09:18] Nathan: so I’d probably take one of your marketing people

[01:09:20] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:09:21] Nathan: And say, your job is to get us as many, uh, leads and opportunities as possible, right. For outbound. Mm-hmm. And makes sure the contact info is good and all of that. Use AI as much as possible and build the systems Yeah.

To help do that.

[01:09:34] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:34] Nathan: And then in your pipeline, like your metrics, revenue pipeline call.

[01:09:38] Michael: Yeah.

[01:09:38] Nathan: Right. They’re gonna be reporting on how many people did we reach out to?

[01:09:41] Michael: Yeah.

[01:09:41] Nathan: And, and all of that. You just don’t want it to entirely rely on you.

[01:09:44] Michael: Yes.

[01:09:45] Nathan: Because, um, it’s not gonna scale.

[01:09:48] Michael: Yeah.

[01:09:49] Nathan: The follow ups not there.

Mm-hmm.

[01:09:50] Michael: That sort of thing,

[01:09:52] Nathan: but make sure that all of your, everything related to outbound is instrumented Yeah.

[01:09:56] Michael: In the

[01:09:56] Nathan: metrics in these two.

[01:09:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:58] Nathan: And then you can see it and you have [01:10:00] accountability.

[01:10:00] Michael: Yeah.

[01:10:00] Nathan: And you can break it down.

[01:10:01] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:02] Nathan: Um, and then I would just have the goals be around, okay, how many partners can we onboard?

[01:10:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:07] Nathan: And then we’ll get to the point of how many, uh, webinars or courses are we getting added into? Um, ’cause you’ve proven in the past that this can work.

[01:10:15] Michael: Yeah.

[01:10:16] Nathan: And then I, I’d go back to all the previous partners

[01:10:19] Michael: as

[01:10:19] Nathan: well.

[01:10:20] Michael: Yeah. There’s the thing. So, um. In the past. So in the 2000 tens

[01:10:24] Nathan: Yep.

[01:10:24] Michael: Uh, we, we built lots of goodwill mm-hmm.

In, in the, the whole, you know, kind of productivity space. ’cause we had also a magazine it was called, was called Productive Magazine. Mm-hmm. And it was kind of famous at some point, and then people actually liked writing for it because the, the, the, the distribution was there. So, um, sometimes I even forget that we have some goodwill that we completely forgot, you know?

Yeah. That we left it there and never came back to it.

[01:10:51] Nathan: Yep. Yeah. There, there’s so much of that. And I would just really be thinking about, okay, how can I get as much of my [01:11:00] attention

[01:11:00] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:11:00] Nathan: And the attention of these 15 people

[01:11:02] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:11:03] Nathan: Outbound.

[01:11:03] Michael: Outbound. Mm-hmm.

[01:11:04] Nathan: And try to take a step back and look. Okay. If people aren’t in our internal

[01:11:10] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:11:11] Nathan: They’re not in our own Nas b account, they’re not seeing what’s happening. If I were to just go out of that

[01:11:16] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:11:16] Nathan: Open an incognito window and go to the marketing website, uhhuh to everything coming outta this business, what’s happening,

[01:11:23] Michael: Uhhuh

[01:11:24] Nathan: and ’cause often there’s not a lot.

[01:11:26] Michael: Yeah.

[01:11:26] Nathan: And so, you know, get outbound in those ways, advertising is not gonna be the answer.

Mm-hmm. Um, because the average revenue per user is too low.

[01:11:35] Michael: Yeah. And the the bidders are, yeah. They have much more money.

[01:11:40] Nathan: The other thing that I would do mm-hmm. I think these true fans are interesting. Mm-hmm. I would go to the, the customers that you have that are the true fans. Mm. And I would say, Hey, who do you follow?

[01:11:53] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:54] Nathan: For productivity advice. How to run your business better.

[01:11:59] Michael: Ah, or

[01:11:59] Nathan: business advice. That’s [01:12:00] uhhuh business advice.

[01:12:01] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:01] Nathan: But try like business advice is very broad.

[01:12:03] Michael: Yeah.

[01:12:03] Nathan: You know, business operations. Mm-hmm. Trying to narrow it just a little bit.

[01:12:07] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:08] Nathan: And then the cool thing is

[01:12:09] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:12:10] Nathan: Um, it’ll give you, it’ll help you brainstorm and like identify as many of these partners as possible.

[01:12:18] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:19] Nathan: But then when you reach out,

[01:12:21] Michael: you can say that.

[01:12:22] Nathan: You can say, Hey, so I was talking to one of my customers who runs this really cool construction business

[01:12:27] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:12:28] Nathan: And I was asking him, Hey, who do you follow on how to run this business better?

[01:12:32] Michael: Uhhuh?

[01:12:32] Nathan: And he said, you

[01:12:34] Michael: Uhhuh.

[01:12:34] Nathan: And you know, and it’s like a little bit of it.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, um, ’cause people always want to hear who their customers are.

[01:12:40] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:41] Nathan: Um, and all of that.

[01:12:42] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:43] Nathan: So that’s how you can really leverage those true fans. Yeah.

[01:12:47] Michael: That’s a good idea. Mm-hmm.

[01:12:51] Nathan: And there’s a lot of other things that we’ll get to.

[01:12:52] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:53] Nathan: But maybe just to touch on some final things. Really look at the team.

[01:12:58] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:59] Nathan: Right. Because we have [01:13:00] constrained resources.

[01:13:00] Michael: Yes.

[01:13:01] Nathan: We’ve got that million dollars a year.

[01:13:02] Michael: Yeah.

[01:13:03] Nathan: And so really make sure, do I have exactly the right team

[01:13:06] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:13:07] Nathan: To take me to where I need to go.

[01:13:08] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:09] Nathan: Um, is everyone owning a metric mm-hmm. And directly working on that.

[01:13:14] Michael: Yeah.

[01:13:15] Nathan: Um, and if we’re going all in on partners

[01:13:18] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:13:19] Nathan: Like how do we,

[01:13:20] Michael: how do

[01:13:20] Nathan: we go make sure that everyone

[01:13:22] Michael: is on board

[01:13:22] Nathan: is driving towards that?

[01:13:23] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:24] Nathan: Um, because if you were to say, you know, if you were to go from 15 people down to 11

[01:13:29] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:13:30] Nathan: That would free up more money to be able to pay partners, which would solve our traffic problem.

[01:13:34] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:34] Nathan: Right. A lot of times when we build companies over a long period of time, we end up with team members

[01:13:40] Michael: Yeah.

[01:13:41] Nathan: That we like, they do good work, but it’s not aligned with,

[01:13:46] Michael: with, with what we want.

[01:13:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Like the go to market motion that we chose the

[01:13:48] Michael: business.

Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:50] Nathan: Um, kind of the last thing as we go touch on partners. You just always looking for who is the person that comes in contact with my ideal customer on a regular [01:14:00] basis.

[01:14:00] Michael: Yeah.

[01:14:01] Nathan: Your product is so broad. I really wanted to find like a niche that we could get to or something else. Yeah. I didn’t find it, but keep looking for it.

’cause it might be there.

[01:14:08] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:09] Nathan: But then just see is, is there this type of person that is out there?

[01:14:12] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like with the case study that we mentioned with uh, her, it was like. Such a cool idea that, that, uh, like sh she, she, because of, she’s, she’s a lady, she’s a, you know, business owner, um, a female business owner.

So she attracting, you know,

[01:14:30] Nathan: people like her,

[01:14:30] Michael: people like her, and then they, and then, because you know, women are much better organized than we are guys. So they, for them it’s like, it’s perfect positioning like that. So they, they, they, they, um, and actually it was one of her customers that brought her to nsbe.

’cause, ’cause

[01:14:46] Nathan: Okay, so I mean, that gets back to this true fans

[01:14:48] Michael: idea,

[01:14:48] Nathan: right?

[01:14:49] Michael: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[01:14:50] Nathan: I love it. Okay. So I think you have quite a to-do list to dive into. Yeah. Um, I just wanna ask like, how do you feel, uh, now after we’ve torn apart

[01:14:59] Michael: your

[01:14:59] Nathan: [01:15:00] business and really delve into it versus when you first came in?

[01:15:03] Michael: No, I feel so much better. I, and I, and you know, when we started with preparing for this, for this podcast and I saw you like, didn’t know from which angle to attack. For me, uh, for me the value was just. To go through this with you.

[01:15:17] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:15:17] Michael: Because then as you have seen, like things start to show up, uh, and then some of the stories I mentioned actually make sense into, into something bigger than, than I thought.

So, um, I like this, I like this approach and, uh, I like my to-do list. So, um, and uh, yeah. After this I have to be able to later, you know, in, in a few months report to you that I’m actually doing my homework. So that’ll be

[01:15:41] Nathan: good. That’s part of it. Well, you can take your to-do list. You can load it up into nasbe.

Yeah. Uh, you can dial in the positioning around Yeah. You know, products mm-hmm. That people actually use.

[01:15:52] Michael: Yeah.

[01:15:52] Nathan: Uh, yeah. And I’d say for anyone following along mm-hmm. You know, if you wanna go check out nos B just nos b.com.

[01:15:57] Michael: Nos b.com NOZB e.com. Yes.

[01:15:59] Nathan: Perfect. Mm-hmm. [01:16:00] And then they can dive in. Implement their business on a productivity tool.

[01:16:04] Michael: Yeah. That their

[01:16:04] Nathan: team will actually use.

[01:16:05] Michael: Exactly.

[01:16:06] Nathan: I love it. Michael, thanks so much for coming on.

[01:16:08] Michael: Thanks, Nathan.

[01:16:09] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Barry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show.

Thank you so much for listening.